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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 4920633" data-attributes="member: 63763">Ok, so first there is the Natural 20 rule. If you roll a natural 20 you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target's defense. If the attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically. So this means that you do NOT score a critical hit if you miss on a natural 20. It's not "you crit, but because you miss it's only a normal hit", it's a case of "you do not score a critical hit, but you do get an automatic hit instead". Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20. This just points out other methods of scoring criticals exist. Then, in brackets, it adds: only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. So, when it says "you can score a critical hit on an 18-20" it means, when you roll betwen 18-20, you can score a critical hit. Only a 20 can you fail to score a critical hit and still get an automatic hit. Since it doesn't say that you do score a critical hit, you use the rule for natural 20, with the modifier that an automatic hit occurs only on a natural 20. No one is arguing that automatic hit applies for the ardent champion. They are either arguing that rolling a pair of 2's, for example, will result in a miss OR it will result in a critical hit. No is arguing that it will result in an automatic hit (which would mean a non-critical hit). Unlike all other critical hit class features and powers and feats ... the Ardent Champion does not allow that you can score a critical hit, but states that you actually score a critical hit. Precision says nothing about how to score a critical hit, only when other powers increase the crit range, it doesn't also increase automatic hit range. If you score a critical hit, you have hit. Normally, in order to check to see if you have scored a critical hit, you need to check to see if you have hit. This is why the powers that increase the 'crit range' all say that you can score a critical hit on 19 and 20 or 18-20, etc ... because it is possible in some corner cases to roll those numbers and not hit, and therefore, not score a critical hit. In this case, rolling doubles instantly causes you to score a critical hit, skipping over the hit/miss check completely. There is a difference between "hits regardless of roll and it's a critical hit as well" and "automatic hit". The latter is a specific case when you roll a natural 20 and still fail to hit, resulting in a normal hit. The former is what some are claiming is occuring. It does not contradict Precision, because people are not claiming an automatic non-critical hit when the dice are double, but the total is less than the target defense. The are claiming that a critical hit is scored that does not compare the attack roll to the target defense at all, so long as the dice are doubled and not 1's.</blockquote>

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