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<blockquote data-quote="Artoomis" data-source="post: 4921998" data-attributes="member: 111">Ah, but, when scrutinized, those rules don't support your argument. Focusing only the relevant steps:3.&nbsp; Make an Attack Roll.&nbsp; (Whoops - Holy Ardor is not &quot;an Attack Roll&quot; - it is TWO Attack Rolls and, unlike Oath of Enmity, not using just one of them (which would be &quot;an Attack Roll&quot;), but using when the two rolls match (doubles - which is not &quot;an Attack Roll&quot;)4.&nbsp; Compare your attack roll to your target's defense (page 274) to determine if whether you hit or miss.&nbsp; (Whoops again - it turns out that's not how you always do this right from the start - &quot;Automatic Hit&quot; would never trigger if you had to always check against the target's defense first.&nbsp; This sets a nice precedent for the possibility of a class feature or power that does not care whether you roll high enough to hit your target’s defense to get credited with a hit)So far, all counters to my arguments seem to require one to look at doubles as if it was really nothing special, and that is wrong because this mechanic is not used anywhere else in the rules, and that is practically the definition of &quot;special.&quot;. So, a question right back at you:How is using the both results of the Oath of Enmity attack rolls (doubles) the same as making an attack roll?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Artoomis, post: 4921998, member: 111"] Ah, but, when scrutinized, those rules don't support your argument. Focusing only the relevant steps: 3. Make an Attack Roll. [COLOR="Yellow"](Whoops - Holy Ardor is not "an Attack Roll" - it is TWO Attack Rolls and, unlike Oath of Enmity, not using just one of them (which would be "an Attack Roll"), but using when the two rolls match (doubles - which is not "an Attack Roll")[/COLOR] 4. Compare your attack roll to your target's defense (page 274) to determine if whether you hit or miss. [COLOR="yellow"](Whoops again - it turns out that's not how you always do this right from the start - "Automatic Hit" would never trigger if you had to always check against the target's defense first. This sets a nice precedent for the possibility of a class feature or power that does not care whether you roll high enough to hit your target’s defense to get credited with a hit)[/COLOR] So far, all counters to my arguments seem to require one to look at doubles as if it was really nothing special, and that is wrong because this mechanic is not used anywhere else in the rules, and that is practically the definition of "special.". So, a question right back at you: How is using the [B][I]both[/I][/B] results of the Oath of Enmity attack rolls (doubles) the same as making [B][I]an[/I][/B] attack roll? [/QUOTE]

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