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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 4922929" data-attributes="member: 65152">Excellent post N8Ball.  Well considered.First I want to correct a couple of typos from the book:3. Make an attack roll (p274 - the book says p273)4. Compare your attack roll... (p276 - the book says p274)Well said.  I think I have to agree with the "one meaning" you have laid out.  Having spent quite a bit of time reviewing p269-278 I think the only consistent meaning that makes sense is "you have met the requirements for dealing critical hit damage".  I pick that term because it is the header for the block of rules text.The automatic hit would be checked in step 4 (compare attack roll).  My view of "Automatic Hit" is that it is an override to the more "general" "miss" rule.Also of note is that the entry for "Critical Hit" listed under the "Hit" rules is only there to establish the default case of natural 20 being a possible crit, but does not actually give you anything (I'll get to this later), nor does it prove crit = hit.I think this just compliments what is stated in the "Hit" rules for the default case.  It also prevents a possible conflict between the "Hit" rules and the "Critical Hit" rules in that they both mention the same default case of natural 20.  The only difference I see here is that it is telling you ("if you got a 20...and you hit...then you score a crit") if you meet these requirements you qualify for "Critical Hit Damage".I don't think any rules at all allow you to skip steps in the order of operations including Holy Ardor.  Other rules provide alternate rules within one specific step or another, but nothing allows you to jump around.  I would need some serious specific rules override within a given power to believe this was the case.  Would you try to skip "Make an attack roll" and go straight to damage without rolling any dice?Based on my reading I have to believe that Precision prevents every critical hit granting ability from having to override the critical hit rules by providing a case for them.  Without Precision, abilities that grant a critical in any other way could be argued to not work without it or be said to replace the normal critical hit rules.  By providing a case for these powers this is avoided.  It does also note that just because you got a critical granted by some other power (Holy Ardor included) that said attack is not an automatic "Hit".  This specifically says (or implies strongly) that you cannot skip steps from p269.Ok...I need to clarify/modify a little of my previous post about order of operations.(using my modified page numbers)3. Make attack roll (p274)4. Compare attack roll to defenses (p276)5. Apply damage and other effects (p276)All the rules in the book that come after the list on p269 are grouped according to the list and appear in order.  So what does this mean?Make an attack roll has about a column and a half of rules text on p274 ending where the heading says "Defenses".Compare attack roll to defenses takes up about 2 pages starting at the heading of "Defenses" and ending on p276 with the heading of "Damage" (the last section is the block on "Attack Results" ie hit or miss).Apply damage starts at p276 under "Damage" and ends at "Durations" on p278.This was clearly done on purpose.  It makes the "Critical Hit" rules part of the "Apply Damage" step.  This makes sense as that's what a critical hit does is modify how you determine damage so in this sense it is a more specific override to the general damage rules at the beginning of the section on p276.So my final resulting example would look like this:3. Make attack roll (using OoE you can roll 2 dice and pick one).4. Compare to defenses.  Two pages of rules here that explain defenses and stuff and the final block where you either hit or miss with natural 20 overriding the miss rules and a note about the default possible critical hit on natural 20.5. Apply damage and other effects.  (I admit this now has a gaping hole in it, but it was there to begin and I'll get to that in a sec)  Two cases are listed for critical hit.  Natural 20 and Precision (some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 - grammar sniping to the side the plural "numbers" is inclusive of one or more die rolls because it makes no distinction between the result of a single die or multiple dice...that is a position invented by the other side that isn't true) with the reminder that even if a power grants you a critical hit on some result other than natural 20 it is not an automatic hit (and therefore can miss).  At this point we can safely apply Holy Ardor and maximize our damage.Now...about that gaping hole I mentioned above.  It seems that there is a corner case where if you are using any power that does damage on a "Miss" that if you qualified for a critical hit you would first maximize the damage and add any extras before cutting the damage in half.  I see nothing in the rules to prevent this reading and frankly it sounds kinda fun.  So the next time your Dagger Master misses on 18-19 using a daily power be sure to maximize your damage before cutting it in half.  Same for Holy Ardor if you roll doubles and miss.</blockquote>

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