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<blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 4925678" data-attributes="member: 65152">What I am trying to say can best be shown by this example because it is exactly what I am trying to get across.I have a feat called Weapon Focus.&nbsp; It gives me a +1 feat bonus to damage.In step 4 I have to &quot;compare attack roll to defenses&quot; (which of course has ~2 full pages of rules).&nbsp; If I &quot;Miss&quot; according to the &quot;Attack Results&quot; at the end of that section of the rules then I cannot possibly invoke the use of &quot;Weapon Focus&quot; because it modifies the damage I do (which is step 5) and &quot;Miss&quot; clearly says I don't do any damage.You keep trying to skip ahead in the rules to step 5 where you have an ability that says you get to do max damage and because of the wording of said power then claim that you didn't need to hit in the first place.Unless you want to argue the logic that Weapon Focus can still do damage when you miss, then this is my point.&nbsp; Holy Ardor itself (the text of the rule) does not grant you a &quot;Hit&quot;, therefore it does not override the general attack resolution.&nbsp; Without such a rule modifier you have to &quot;Hit&quot; before you can apply damage.&nbsp; If you get to &quot;Apply Damage&quot; then you can invoke Holy Ardor and maximize that damage, otherwise you miss and Holy Ardor does not apply no matter what you rolled.&nbsp; (This is the part where we argued the needed clause of &quot;automatic hit&quot;) to override the general &quot;attack results&quot; rules.Also if you want to use specific beats general then you cannot invoke the Attack Resolution rules (p276) to prove that your critical hit is a hit.&nbsp; That is using the rule that tells you if you hit or not to prove that you hit.&nbsp; A rule cannot be both the specific rule and the general rule and override itself.&nbsp; If you want some specific rule that overrides the general rules on &quot;Attack Results&quot; then you need to reference ANY OTHER RULE to make your case.Pick either hole in your argument and try to prove it true...either Weapon Focus does damage when you miss or the circular logic that a rule can be used to override itself.&nbsp; Quite frankly you need to prove both for me to believe you are correct (note: this is not possible).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CovertOps, post: 4925678, member: 65152"] What I am trying to say can best be shown by this example because it is exactly what I am trying to get across. I have a feat called Weapon Focus. It gives me a +1 feat bonus to damage. In step 4 I have to "compare attack roll to defenses" (which of course has ~2 full pages of rules). If I "Miss" according to the "Attack Results" at the end of that section of the rules then I cannot possibly invoke the use of "Weapon Focus" because it modifies the damage I do (which is step 5) and "Miss" clearly says I don't do any damage. You keep trying to skip ahead in the rules to step 5 where you have an ability that says you get to do max damage and because of the wording of said power then claim that you didn't need to hit in the first place. Unless you want to argue the logic that Weapon Focus can still do damage when you miss, then this is my point. Holy Ardor itself (the text of the rule) does not grant you a "Hit", therefore it does not override the general attack resolution. Without such a rule modifier you have to "Hit" before you can apply damage. If you get to "Apply Damage" then you can invoke Holy Ardor and maximize that damage, otherwise you miss and Holy Ardor does not apply no matter what you rolled. (This is the part where we argued the needed clause of "automatic hit") to override the general "attack results" rules. Also if you want to use specific beats general then you cannot invoke the Attack Resolution rules (p276) to prove that your critical hit is a hit. That is using the rule that tells you if you hit or not to prove that you hit. A rule cannot be both the specific rule and the general rule and override itself. If you want some specific rule that overrides the general rules on "Attack Results" then you need to reference ANY OTHER RULE to make your case. Pick either hole in your argument and try to prove it true...either Weapon Focus does damage when you miss or the circular logic that a rule can be used to override itself. Quite frankly you need to prove both for me to believe you are correct (note: this is not possible). [/QUOTE]

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