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<blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 4927543" data-attributes="member: 65152">I never said any such thing.&nbsp; I said the only outcome of attack result is &quot;Hit&quot; or &quot;Miss&quot;.&nbsp; Please stop making assumptions or attempting to make claims about my comments that aren't true.Automatic Hit is an exception.&nbsp; It grants you a hit when you otherwise would have missed.&nbsp; It is left to the reader if it is an exception to the general miss rules or the general hit rules, but I think it makes more sense if it is overriding the &quot;Hit&quot; rules since that is where it is located.[sarcasm]Fine...you go ahead and have a critical that misses and does no damage then.&nbsp; While you're at it why don't you go ahead and apply damage from Weapon Focus on a miss as well.[/sarcasm]In order to get an &quot;attack result&quot; you need [EDIT] one of [/EDIT] two things.&nbsp; An &quot;attack roll&quot;, or something that specifically grants you a &quot;Hit&quot; (ie overrides with specific text saying you &quot;Hit&quot; even if you did not beat the defenses of the target).&nbsp; Since Holy Ardor supplies neither of these it's use does nothing to resolve this step of the process.&nbsp; OoE on the other hand does give you an &quot;attack roll&quot; so it can be used here.You are correct here.&nbsp; All it does is override how you can get a &quot;Critical Hit&quot;.&nbsp; This means that you can score a critical hit without rolling a natural 20.&nbsp; You have a &quot;new mechanic&quot; (doubles) to replace this requirement (natural 20).This is a truism.&nbsp; This is no different from &quot;All elephants are grey, therefore my elephant is grey.&quot;&nbsp; This statement does not however prove that if a power, feat, or ability grants you a critical hit that therefore you &quot;Hit&quot;.Look Artoomis.&nbsp; We can go around and around on this forever, but answer one question first.&nbsp; Is Holy Ardor an &quot;Attack Roll&quot; per the definition of same on p273 or p274 (can't remember at this point) or not?If it IS an attack roll then it overrides nothing and you can use the results of said &quot;Attack Roll&quot; to resolve step 4 (compare attack roll to defenses).&nbsp; If you hit you hit, and if you miss you miss.If it is NOT an attack roll then it cannot be used to prove that you &quot;Hit&quot; or &quot;Miss&quot; as only an attack roll can be used to determine that outcome.&nbsp; If you indeed get a hit you can then apply Holy Ardor to override the normal (natural 20) requirement of a critical hit.&nbsp; Holy Ardor does indeed override a general rule, just not the one you want it to override.&nbsp; And no matter how hard you wish it, the text of the rule does not change.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CovertOps, post: 4927543, member: 65152"] I never said any such thing. I said the only [b]outcome[/b] of attack result is "Hit" or "Miss". Please stop making assumptions or attempting to make claims about my comments that aren't true. Automatic Hit is an exception. It grants you a hit when you otherwise would have missed. It is left to the reader if it is an exception to the general miss rules or the general hit rules, but I think it makes more sense if it is overriding the "Hit" rules since that is where it is located. [sarcasm]Fine...you go ahead and have a critical that misses and does no damage then. While you're at it why don't you go ahead and apply damage from Weapon Focus on a miss as well.[/sarcasm] In order to get an "attack result" you need [EDIT] one of [/EDIT] two things. An "attack roll", or something that specifically grants you a "Hit" (ie overrides with specific text saying you "Hit" even if you did not beat the defenses of the target). Since Holy Ardor supplies [b]neither[/b] of these it's use does nothing to resolve this step of the process. OoE on the other hand [b]does[/b] give you an "attack roll" so it [b]can[/b] be used here. You are correct here. All it does is override how you can get a "Critical Hit". This means that you can score a critical hit without rolling a natural 20. You have a "new mechanic" (doubles) to replace this requirement (natural 20). This is a truism. This is no different from "All elephants are grey, therefore my elephant is grey." This statement does not however prove that if a power, feat, or ability grants you a critical hit that therefore you "Hit". Look Artoomis. We can go around and around on this forever, but answer one question first. Is Holy Ardor an "Attack Roll" per the definition of same on p273 or p274 (can't remember at this point) or not? If it IS an attack roll then it overrides nothing and you can use the results of said "Attack Roll" to resolve step 4 (compare attack roll to defenses). If you hit you hit, and if you miss you miss. If it is NOT an attack roll then it cannot be used to prove that you "Hit" or "Miss" as only an attack roll can be used to determine that outcome. If you indeed get a hit you can then apply Holy Ardor to override the normal (natural 20) requirement of a critical hit. Holy Ardor does indeed override a general rule, just not the one you want it to override. And no matter how hard you wish it, the text of the rule does not change. [/QUOTE]

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