Adjudicating Find the Path

[Liquidsabre]

Yes, that's fine Camarath but if they've already been there before why would they need to use the spell?

 

[Scion]

I dont see why it has to be widely known at all. Even if no one knows about it, and the pcs only hear about it via some sort of divination, they could still find their way to it. It is a location after all, even if no one knows about it.

I had a player cast this before in order to enter someones 'instant fortress', they had never been inside and the command word was in a language that no one spoke (effectively a madeup mishmash of noises and movements). But I allowed them to get inside of it. Even though it moved around everyday, they had never been inside, didnt know what the fortress was called, and it could even change shape to not look like a fortress.

I know that some people try to get more out of it, but many players are probably just trying to get the spell to work at all Let them know ahead of time how you are going to be adjucating it though, that is very important for such spells.

Divinations can definately help, 'the dragon you seek is in a forest long forgotten, many miles to the west of your current position.' I would allow them to find a forest to the west that was long forgotten by all. Even though it might be a bit outside of the bounds of the spell, possibly, it still makes sense. Plus it doesnt force the pc's to find every forest west and search them all

 

[Pielorinho]

I'd be inclined to be stingy with the spell, as it can already short-circuit adventures pretty easily, and not always to the players' advantage (in a redcnet storyline of mine, a player's clever use of the spell amost led to them bypassing every single clue that would have enabled them to thwart a plot against the queen. I threw more clues in their path so that they wouldn't have an uber-frustrating game session, but the clues I came up with were much more half-assed than what I'd originally planned).

That said, I'd agree that a location referenced by an object or creature isn't referenced at all. Players who looked for "the nearest exit that we've not already been through" couldn't do it, but if they were looking for "the nearest exit that doesn't look like any of the exits I'm currently thinking about" could do it: they're now defining the locations they're excluding by characteristics of the locations themselves.

WHre this gets really complicated is in the fact that locations are pretty much made of big objects, in some ways, and I wouldn't allow folks to search for those specific objects. No searching for the nearest vein of mithril, nor the nearest floor that's got dragon-claw scratches in it. However, I would allow searching for the nearest freshwater stream.

No searching for Joe's House, either, unless that's the name of the house. You could search for the nearest house, or you could search for the Three Falls Manor, but not for the house that Joe owns.

You're right that there's a fuzzy line. May I suggest a house rule? The less like a "pure" location the character is searching for, the less the spell succeeds. If you look ofr the nearest exit, the nearest house, the nearest river, the nearest forest, it works great. If you look for the nearest exit that you've not already seen, it may not give you all the warning about traps etc. that the spell normally gives. If you look for Joe's House, it may just give you a vague pull in the right direction. If you look for Joe's current location, Bigby's hand appears and smacks you upside the head.

Daniel

 

[Sagiro]

Lots of interesting and good thoughts here, and I'm inclined to agree with much of what's been said. One area where I think I don't agree (and I'll use Pielorinho's and Liquidsabre's specific examples) is the named vs. unnamed distinction. That seems strangely arbitary. Named by whom? For how long? By how many people? Joe's house may not have a sign on that says "Joe's House," but that's still what it is. If you ask Joe's neighbor if the house has a name, or at least a descriptor, "Joe's House" would be it.

I'd allow "Joe's House," assuming Joe was a known person with a fixed abode. Of course, Joe might not be home when you get there -- the spell is finding the location, not the person. But if Joe were an itinerant who had no fixed address, and stayed in a different cottage every night, the spell wouldn't work on "Joe's House," even if Joe were in a house when you cast the spell.

Likewise for the example of "Tira Doomweaver's castle" given above. If there's a person named Tira Doomweaver who has taken up residence in a castle and rules the surrounding countryside from there, but isn't going to formally name the place "Castle Doomweaver" until tomorrow, it seems wonky that the spell won't work tonight but it will next week.

One thing that this thread has made me ponder is the list of ways in which a location can de described and defined. Here are some:

- commonly-used or common-sense name: "Sherwood Forest" "Castle Blackhope"

- location relative to fixed known landmarks: "The ruins south of the Razorback Mountains" "The stone circle closest to Port Fortune's graveyard." "The closest exit from this dungeon that is not the one through which we entered."

- activities that have occurred there in the past: "The clearing where last year's gnome-tossing championships were held."

- activites that are occuring there in the present: "The dungeon where Mad Holyck Hairpuller tortures his prisoners."

- the owner of the location: "King Josric's summer estate" "Joe's House" "Tira Doomweaver's Castle"

- relative distance from the caster: "The closest pine forest" "The farthest-away dimensional portal that's still within 100 miles."

- objects in the place: "The house containing Leonardo's famous Statue of the Mad Monk."

There are probably more. I wonder if this kind of categorization could be used to generate more fixed rules for how the spell works, where each category either always or never works?

Thanks for the continued discussion!

-Sagiro

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Reading the examples in the PHB makes it seem much more limited than most here are playing it - there's no example in the PHB that indicates that it can find a named location ala Joe's House.

My presumption would be that it could find Joe's House if the caster knew where and what Joe's House was - meaning it would only really be helpful if the caster didn't know his own current location - which would have its value in certain circumstance, but not generally.

Let's say you're outside a hill where you know there is a dungeon. You could cast it to "find the entrance" to the dungeon. It would either work (leading you to the nearest entrance) or it would fail (meaning either the entrance is highly protected or you're wrong, and there is no entrance). I don't see anything in the spell description to support the idea of finding the "second closest entrance" or "least guarded entrance."

Sagiro, in your last example of possible locales, I don't think the spell would find any of them other than "the closest pine forest."

"the forest where the green dragon Kizarvexius lives."
"the location of the nearest hoard of platinum pieces."
"the exit to this dungon guarded by the fewest creatures."
"the closest exit to this dungeon that is not the one we came through."
"the room in this dungeon that contains the Spear of Legendary Pointiness."

I don't think the spell would find any of these.

Of course, keep in mind that I am very stingy with effects. I think strict interpretation of the rules can solve most abuses.

Now, there might be some interesting ways to stretch the interpretation. Could you ask, "Find the spot furthest from the exit?" A clever caster might ask that, assuming that the treasure/McGuffin/whatzit is in the most secure, and most remote place. I'm not sure I'd allow that to work; but I'd try it if I were a player.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

A couple further thoughts: The spell would lead you to places that are as logically likely as an exit. For example, if you were on a steamship, and you specified "the engine room." You can pretty much assume there has to be one. Likewise, I think you could specify the "top deck" of the hyothetical steamship.

It would have been nice if they had included any positive examples of success that didn't involve exits or entrances; the way it's written almost implies it can find nothing else. I'm not sure I want to restrict it that much.

 

[Hardhead]

I always like Monte Cook's nickname for the spell:

"Ruin the Adventure."