Adjudicating Immediate actions

[MarkB]

I'm sure this has come up before, but with the release of the PHBII and lots of spells (and a few feats) that use immediate actions, I find myself wondering how easy they are to adjudicate in actual play. I've read the description given in the front of the PHBII, but it didn't answer all my questions.

Let's take Energy Aegis as an example, which can grant a subject Resistance 20 against a specific energy type for up to 1 round or until discharged. Assume there's a spellcaster with this spell memorised who wishes to protect the frontline fighter against an enemy spellcaster's attack.

DM: "The hobgoblin Sorcerer raises his hand and spellcasts, unleashing a ray of scorching fire that sears into <fightername>'s flesh. Take 14 fire damage."​

As a player, at what point can I interrupt events to cast my protective energy aegis? Can I interrupt another character's action at all, short of Readying an action? Could I attempt a Spellcraft check as the sorcerer casts, as with counterspelling, to find out what energy type (if any) I need to provide protection against?

As the DM, should I be lengthening the description, or adding occasional pauses, to allow players the chance to leap in with their immediate actions?

 

[KarinsDad]

By definition, Immediate Actions are ones which allow someone to act during the turn of a different creature. In other words, you can interrupt the other creature's action with the immediate action. Otherwise, certain types of immediate actions would be fairly worthless.

So, Energy Aegis could be cast to protect the ally.

However, some DMs (myself included) might require some form of Spellcraft roll to determine which spell is being cast since Scorching Ray is an instantaneous effect. If the Spellcraft roll is failed, then Energy Aegis could not be cast to protect the ally.

 

[Asmo]

By definition, Immediate Actions are ones which allow someone to act during the turn of a different creature. In other words, you can interrupt the other creature's action with the immediate action.

Do they work like instants in Magic:the Gathering, using some kind of "stack", like in Magic?

Asmo

 

[irdeggman]

KD pretty much summed up how immediate actions work. And I agree with the use of the Spellcraft check - pretty much like a counter spell - you've got to determine what spell is being cast in order to know how to counter it.

But there is also the restriction of only 1 swift action per round - so if you've used an immediate action then you can't use your next round's swift action.

 

[irdeggman]

If this helps its from the SRD under powers overview.

New Action Types
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve psionics or the activation of psionic items; many characters (especially those who don’t use psionics) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Manifesting a quickened power is a swift action. In addition, manifesting any power with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.
Manifesting a power with a manifesting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Immediate Action: Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.

Immediate and swift action first appeared in the exp psinics book but the definitions haven't changed when WotC appled them to spells also.

 

[MarkB]

Thanks for the quick replies. I guess what I'm really trying to ask is at what point, in practical terms, you would consider the opportune moment for the player to speak up to have passed. For instance, in the example I gave, if the spellcaster's player - after the DM has finished describing the opponent's action - suddenly pipes up with "Oh! I protect the fighter with my energy aegis!", would you allow that (subject to a successful Spellcraft check, of course)?

I'm tending to think that yes, I would allow it, but I just wanted to see how people have seen it play out in their games.

 

[irdeggman]

Thanks for the quick replies. I guess what I'm really trying to ask is at what point, in practical terms, you would consider the opportune moment for the player to speak up to have passed. For instance, in the example I gave, if the spellcaster's player - after the DM has finished describing the opponent's action - suddenly pipes up with "Oh! I protect the fighter with my energy aegis!", would you allow that (subject to a successful Spellcraft check, of course)?

I'm tending to think that yes, I would allow it, but I just wanted to see how people have seen it play out in their games.

That seems reasonable in order to account for real time discrepancies.

Do not allow it however after the action has been resolved (i.e., attack rolls/damage have been rolled) - I can see player's trying to stretch that if given the chance.

 

[RigaMortus2]

However, some DMs (myself included) might require some form of Spellcraft roll to determine which spell is being cast since Scorching Ray is an instantaneous effect. If the Spellcraft roll is failed, then Energy Aegis could not be cast to protect the ally.

I would also require a spellcraft roll too, but if the roll failed I would still allow them to cast Energy Aegis if they wanted to. They would just have to guess what type of energy source (if any) is being cast at their ally.

Also, if the caster has already fired off 1 or 2 of the same spell (like Scorching Ray), the player can make an educated guess that the next time he casts a spell it will also be Scorcing Ray, so he can case EA: Fire if he wanted to. But it would still be a guess...

How about this though... Can the person casting Scorching Ray decide to pick a new target? You don't decide your target until the spell is cast. Spellcraft allows you to know a spell AS it is being cast. So you may know he is casting Scorching Ray, but you may not know who he plans to target.

 

[KarinsDad]

I would also require a spellcraft roll too, but if the roll failed I would still allow them to cast Energy Aegis if they wanted to. They would just have to guess what type of energy source (if any) is being cast at their ally.

Also, if the caster has already fired off 1 or 2 of the same spell (like Scorching Ray), the player can make an educated guess that the next time he casts a spell it will also be Scorcing Ray, so he can case EA: Fire if he wanted to. But it would still be a guess...

Agreed.

How about this though... Can the person casting Scorching Ray decide to pick a new target? You don't decide your target until the spell is cast. Spellcraft allows you to know a spell AS it is being cast. So you may know he is casting Scorching Ray, but you may not know who he plans to target.

Interesting questions.

For the first one, a literal reading of the rule would allow that, but no, that should not be allowed. Casting is pretty much an atomic action where you decide everything all at the same time that you cast. The action can be interrupted, but that does not mean that the action can be changed due to the interruption.

I think the following quote:

You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

really is (or at least should be) for one round and longer spells. For immediate, swift, and standard action spells, it is all one quick action that the caster should not be allowed to abort or modify. Additionally, this rule was in place way before immediate actions became part of the game, so I would personally not put too much stock into it. But like I said, a literal reading of this does allow it.

Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

I'm pretty much basing the adjudication above off of this Readying rule. The character continues his actions, he does not (effectively) change them.


For the second one, if the DM really wanted a player to determine the target of a spell, he should probably allow a fairly low DC Spot roll. Chances are, if you are targeting PC1, you are basically looking at PC1. A real tricky spell caster could attempt a Bluff, but your average spell caster would not think to do that, especially for the first Scorching Ray he casts.

 

[RigaMortus2]

One way around this might be to allow the Spellcraft check AS the spell is being cast, but then use the Immediate action spell (Energy Aegis) once you see who the caster is pointing the spell at, or as the spell is being fired.