Advanced Classes

[Cheiromancer]

I wish that multi-classing could handle the archetypes of the Wizard/Cleric and the Fighter/Wizard without having to use prestige classes. My solution is the idea of "advanced classes."

Advanced Classes: Every base class has an advanced counterpart: Advanced Barbarian, Advanced Cleric, Advanced Fighter, Advanced Wizard and so on. They work just like the base classes except for the following:

Advanced classes count double for spellcasting and special abilities.​

A special ability is everything in the "special" column of the class advancement table. In other words, each level of an Advanced Class gives all the normal benefits of a level in the base class (hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points) and also gives a bonus level in that class for determining spellcasting and special abilities.

Spoiler

Example: A Wiz8/AdvClr4 has 4 levels of cleric as far as hit dice, BAB, saves and skill points are concerned, but turns undead and casts spells as an 8th level cleric.

Taking an Advanced Class: To take a level in an advanced class, you must have 6 hit dice and at least 3 outside class levels. The maximum level you can have in an advanced class is half the total levels of outside classes.

Definition: For a level in advanced wizard, an outside class is any class except wizard or advanced wizard. For a level in advanced rogue, outside classes are anything but rogue or advanced rogue. And so on. (Generally, no advanced class is outside itself, nor is its associated base class considered outside; all other classes are.)

Spoiler

Example: A Wiz8/AdvClr4 is a legal character; so is a Ftr4/Clr2/AdvClr1. A Wiz8/AdvClr5 is not (5 is more than half of 8); neither is a Ftr2/Clr4/AdvClr1 (advanced cleric needs three outside levels, but this build has only two).

Advanced Classes and Prestige Classes: Any bonus levels of spellcasting and special abilities provided by an advanced class do not stack with prestige classes that advance the same type of spellcasting or special ability.

Spoiler

Example: A Wiz6/AdvRog2/AT3 has the spellcasting ability of an 9th level wizard, but only 2d6 sneak attack damage. AdvRog2 gives two levels of rogue, and two bonus levels. These bonus levels don’t stack with the three levels of Arcane Trickster. The sneak attack damage is 1d6 (as a second level rogue) plus 1d6 (as a third level Arcane Trickster), for a total of 2d6.

XP penalties for unbalanced multiclassing: Advanced classes count double for determining whether an unbalanced distribution of class levels gives an xp penalty.

Spoiler

Example: A Dwarf Wiz8/AdvClr4 does not incur an experience point penalty; a Dwarf Wiz3/Clr3/AdvRog3 would.

To adequately create a wizard/fighter multiclass, the following needs to be adopted:

House rule: Every 4 levels of warrior (or two levels of advanced warrior) givess a bonus of +1 BAB to a maximum BAB equal to one's HD.

Spoiler

Example: A wizard 6 takes the following levels in order: 1 level of advanced fighter, 2 levels of advanced warrior, 1 level of advanced wizard.

As a Wiz 6/AdvWiz 1/AdvFtr 1/AdvWar 2, he has a BAB of +7 (+3 from Wiz/AdvWiz, +1 from AdvFtr, +2 from AdvWar, plus a bonus of +1 BAB for taking two levels of advanced warrior). He casts spells as an 8th level wizard, has two fighter bonus feats, and 7d4+1d10+2d8 hp (average 31 hp + con).

In comparison, a wizard 6/fighter 1/EK 3 has a BAB of +7, casts spells as a 8th level wizard, has two fighter bonus feats, and 6d4+1d10+3d6 hp (average 30 hp + con).

Combinations involving other classes can also be included, even ones that Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight don't do justice to. Want to multiclass Bards and Druids without sacrificing bardic music and wildshape abilities? Use advanced classes!

[edit]changed minimum level to 6 from 5. Hid the examples, so the rules would be easier to read.[/edit]

 

[Ransom]

Looks amazing Cheiromancer. Do you equate the extra spellcasting abilities to the inherent penalties involved in multiclassing?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hmmm. No one else thinks it is worth commenting on? I thought it was a clever fix to the multiclassing problem. Oh well....

 

[the Jester]

Interesting and provocative.

Must think it over.

 

[Al]

Looks good...the only issue I have is that it makes qualifying for multiclass prestige classes (geomancer, true necromancer, mystic theurge) much easier (since you don't have to go via mystic theurge). There is also a disturbing synergy for the mystic theurge.

Someone could qualify for true necromancer with just eight levels (Wiz4/Clr1/AdvClr2/AdvWiz1) and effectively spellcasting of Wiz6/Clr5, or for geomancer and mystic theurge with just five levels (Wiz3/AdvClr1/Clr1), shaving two and one levels off requisite level, respectively. I'm not sure what long-term impact this would have on game balance though...the true necromancer as written is weak, but the geomancer and mystic theurge are currently pretty strong. More seriously, the monstrosity Wiz3/Clr3/AdvWiz2/AdvClr2/MsT10 is possible under this scheme (take three Wiz then three Clr, alternate the advanced classes then straight up mystic theurge), which has caster levels of 17/17 (i.e. 9th level arcane and divine spells...)

 

[Gez]

A (simplified) version of my (more complex) system could be sumed up this way:

Add one-quarter your non-spellcaster class levels to your spellcaster class level.

Thus, a fighter 10/Wizard 10 would be considered Wizard 12.

 

[LightPhoenix]

So I didn't think this was ever explicitly mentioned somewhere (and somewhat mentioned in your first example), but there's a limit on the number of Advanced classes you can take?

Otherwise I don't see why you wouldn't do something like Clr 10 / AWiz 10, in which case you cast as a 20th level Wizard and 10th level Cleric, with a better BAB and only missing the enhancements to familiars and two bonus feats. Unless both of those count as special abilities as well? The first I could see being doubled, but the second it seems you wouldn't use the doubled level.

I guess my point is that parts need to be clarified a bit more - the limit on what ratio of Advanced levels you can take, and specifically what class abilities use the doubled level and which use only the base.

 

[Cheiromancer]

So I didn't think this was ever explicitly mentioned somewhere (and somewhat mentioned in your first example), but there's a limit on the number of Advanced classes you can take?

Otherwise I don't see why you wouldn't do something like Clr 10 / AWiz 10, in which case you cast as a 20th level Wizard and 10th level Cleric, with a better BAB and only missing the enhancements to familiars and two bonus feats. Unless both of those count as special abilities as well? The first I could see being doubled, but the second it seems you wouldn't use the doubled level.

I guess my point is that parts need to be clarified a bit more - the limit on what ratio of Advanced levels you can take, and specifically what class abilities use the doubled level and which use only the base.

Your maximum level in an advanced class is half the number of outside levels. If you are a Clr10, you can only take 5 levels of AdvWiz. This rule is kinda buried in the text- I really should arrange it better.

To find out what abilities are doubled, you have to look at the advancement table. For purposes of what is under "special" and "spells per day," every level of an advanced class counts double. For everything else it is treated like a level of the base class.

Looks good...the only issue I have is that it makes qualifying for multiclass prestige classes (geomancer, true necromancer, mystic theurge) much easier (since you don't have to go via mystic theurge). There is also a disturbing synergy for the mystic theurge.

Someone could qualify for geomancer and mystic theurge with just five levels (Wiz3/AdvClr1/Clr1), shaving two and one levels off requisite level, respectively.

You need to be 6th level in order to qualify for an advanced class, so a character who actually takes a level in an advanced class will be at least 7th level. I don't think a character would be able to get into geomancer or mystic theurge any faster than normal.

I'm not sure what long-term impact this would have on game balance though...the true necromancer as written is weak, but the geomancer and mystic theurge are currently pretty strong. More seriously, the monstrosity Wiz3/Clr3/AdvWiz2/AdvClr2/MsT10 is possible under this scheme (take three Wiz then three Clr, alternate the advanced classes then straight up mystic theurge), which has caster levels of 17/17 (i.e. 9th level arcane and divine spells...)

Yeah, it's like having another class like MsT around, or like MsT having 14+ levels instead of only 10. Part of the intention of advanced classes was to do away with classes like the MsT or EK, though, so it is perhaps not surprising if there are problems when you include them together.

I've changed how prestige classes and advanced classes stack. For example, now a Wiz6/AdvRog2 could take levels of Arcane Trickster, but the sneak attack damage wouldn't stack. A Wiz6/AdvClr2 could take levels in geomancer, but he would be wise to only advance his wizard spellcasting. A Wiz6/AdvFtr1 could take EK, but would lose out on the bonus feat. (Bonus feats are a special ability for fighters).

As an in-game justification, one could say that an Advanced Class results from learning short-cuts and exploiting synergies from other class levels, but that the consequence of such short-cuts is that you don't have the foundational skills that the prestige classes pre-suppose.

A 6th level wizard who wishes to become a fighter has certain advantages. He already has a +3 BAB, has as many hit points as a second level fighter (representing the ability to duck and dodge), and so can devote more attention to acquiring feats. But his fighting style will be different from that of a fighter. As an Eldritch Knight he will have to relearn some techniques in place of acquiring the 1st level feat.

Similarly, a 6th level wizard who takes two levels of Advanced Cleric already has a deep understanding of magic, and knows how to channel magical energy effectively. It is easier for him to learn how to channel positive and negative energy and cast divine spells. But to be a Mystic Theurge he needs to know how to cast divine spells like a cleric would, not like a wizard would.

This rule would still allow a character to advance as a True Necromancer without having to relearn basic skills. Just go Cleric 6/AdvWiz3, and put all spellcasting on Cleric. But this is only one level earlier than a character could achieve True Necromancer using standard rules. Since True Necromancer is weak, this is a slight improvement.

 

[Cheiromancer]

This might be relevant to the thread on multi-classed spellcasters.

I hope that I have addressed the reservations raised by Al.

Interesting and provocative.

Must think it over.

I'd be interested in hearing your conclusions.

 

[Philip]

Cheiromancer,

It seems interesting, but I am afraid I must think it over as well. At first glance it doesn't seem intuitive.

And I thought the problem was primarily with spellcasters. Non-spellcasting classes already stack reasonably well, now they get advantages too?

And what do you mean with getting special abilities? Feats, sneak attack, divine grace, bard songs, damage reduction, everything of those?