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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ryryguy" data-source="post: 5059481" data-attributes="member: 64945">[sblock=ooc]Regarding stealth, LOS, etc...  first of all, I just want to make it clear that I'm not complaining about how Tenchuu has been handling it.  I don't think this has been putting the PCs at any significant disadvantage in this fight.  I only brought it up because I happened to be reading a thread on this exact subject on the WotC rules forum, where the rules monkeys were saying that if something is not Hidden (using Stealth), then you know its exact location regardless of LOS.Well, and also because it makes it harder for me to post Hergunna's move... I'm going to have to post something like "Hergunna moves to such-and-such square, can she see them now?"  Not a big deal, just slows things up a little bit.That being said...The business about beating the stealth check by 5 or 10 comes from PHB page 281, under the "Targeting What You Can't See" sidebar, "Make a Perception Check" paragraph.  This got errata'd, part and parcel of the overhaul they did on Stealth.  The new "Make a Perception Check" rules is simply that if you beat the Stealth check, you know where it is:[sblock=Errata]Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186) to try to determine the location of an invisible creature that is hidden from you.[/sblock]I think that though this might be less realistic, it certainly lowers the P.I.T.A factor significantly.  It's a simple opposed check with no math, and either you know where it is, or you don't.  I do like to play by the rules, but I don't mind when a DM uses common sense, especially when it makes the game run more smoothly and more clearly.  It seems fine to let the kobolds make Stealth checks after using Shifty to shift, even if technically it's a minor action and not a move action.  I do think we should obey the errata as far as saying that you only need to beat the Stealth check normally, not by 5, in order to simply detect the unseen creature.  But common sense says when something's out of line of sight, it's hard to know its exact location, particularly if you haven't spotted it recently (like with the kobolds coming up from the south).  So applying the pre-errata rules for knowing only general direction, instead of exact location, unless you beat Steath by a certain amount, seems okay.  The DM is also perfectly entitled to apply circumstance modifiers for distance, or distractions, or a loud environment.I'm glad that you did make a check for the kobolds sneaking up from the south - and also glad that Hergunna beat it.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  I think it would have been unfair to the players if the kobolds could automatically sneak up on us just because we can't see them.  It also forces the kobolds to make a tactical choice - if they move more than 2 squares at a time, they get a -5 on their Stealth checks.  (Although, I think we've given these particular ones plenty of time to get here at a careful pace. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />)Finally, of course, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  All this stuff applies to the PCs, as well.  We can't sneak up automatically on the kobolds in the buildings while they don't have LOS to us - we also have to beat them with a Stealth check.  We also have to decide whether to move fast at -5 or slow.  In fact, the errata probably hurts the PCs more than the monsters - in almost any party some if not most of the PCs will have bad Stealth checks, and could really benefit from the effective +5 in the original rules.Well, enough rules blather.  I'll post a move shortly.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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