Adventure Path Help Please

[RangerWickett]

Heck, I directed WotBS and I know it's not for everyone. One of my biweekly games is basically beer-and-pretzels hang-out time. A PC dies every week or two, which is great because we like to try out new rules and character concepts. After 3.5 years of 4e, we're finally to 13th level. I love this kind of game.

Good luck with Scales of War.

 

[Unwise]

Cool, given that your interested in SoW, I'll focus on the good things that can be used to make a sweet campaign.

The core plot elements of Scales of War can be a solid basis of a campaign.


*** Spoilers Incoming ***



- Low heroic has a simple basis. Bad guy arms dealers are giving weapons to orcs and hobgoblins to encourage them to cause problems. Good basis, easy to work with, many plot holes are easily avoided. Establishes some investigation and enmity with the heroic BBEG.

- Mid heroic, is really not connected to the plot, almost at all. That is not a bad thing. With the help of that pbworks page, you can tie them in more closely, but consider using this time to further individual PC quests and background stories.

- High heroic is good, they see the culmination of the big fights that low heroic fortold and they get to take on the first BBEG. The investigations around town need a little work, but that is easily done.

- Paragon introduces some very tenuous reasons to travel to different places, however once the PCs are there, the adventures seem internally consistent for the most part. I think at this stage it becomes easier to lose sight of why they are doing the running around. I think you need to play up the effect the war is having on the world, as much of the game revolves around a war that is not in fact taking place.

- I am yet to play Epic, but the last couple of adventures look really fun. The few before that seem I am less sure about.

So as I originally said, SoW won't save you from having to come up with a plot yourself really. It overly complicates a simple basis to start with, but you can easily re-write weird plot items and keep the same encounters for the most part. After that initial hurdle, there are a few filler adventures which are fine and can he left out for a less railroaded feel.

Coming up with plots and reasons for PCs to do things is the fun bit though, I just appreciate having a bunch of encounters already laid out for me and it is pretty good at that. The advice on that pbworks site is great for making the encounters a little more sensible and less gygaxian. The authors say they could only use MM1 at that stage, so had to have odd monster combinations.

Once you have completed heroic tier, I think that the campaign takes on a life of its own, so the plot suggestions and suggested reason for doing things become less of an issue. The correlation between the theoretical campaign the authors are writing for and how any individual groups campaign actually plays widens as the AP continues. That is fine though.

 

[Truename]

I played SoW through the end of the heroic tier before ending the campaign and starting over with WotBS. There are some great set-piece battles in the path--the climax of the second adventure was amazing--but after a year of nothing but combat after combat, I got bored DMing it. The linearity, constant combat grind, and complete lack of consequences for players' actions were too much for me. (For example, the final adventure of the heroic tier involves defending a city. Impact on future adventures if the city is badly damaged or destroyed--options specifically called out as possibilities? Nada.) The players were still having a good time, though.

If you're going to run SoW, I'd suggest cutting about half the encounters and just focusing on the highlights. That's the real strength of the series. You might want to update the monsters to the new monster math, too, to make things move quicker.

As for me, if I were starting a new campaign today, I'd choose Zeitgeist.

 

[Unwise]

Oh yeah hehe that fight at the end of Brodrin's Watch was very memorable. Not entirely for the right reasons in my game. I described the effect of that chamber as basically being a giant tumbling washing machine full of boiling water. I think I described it too well though, as rather than feeling good about themselves at the end of the fight, the players felt like they had just committed a war-crime. Oops, my bad.

Describe them killing 10 orcs, they feel like heroes, describe them boiling 1000 and they throw up, then go back to town, skip the parades in their honour and drink themselves stupid. It was good RP opportunities for them though.

 

[Netherstorm]

I ran Scales from 1-30. It was awesome. Heroic tier is very shaky and a lot of people seem to bail on it, but once you get to the githyanki stuff it is really good all the way to the end.

You will definitely need to update the monster stats with the monster vault style stats (less hp, more damage). And I'd agree that you should skip some encounters.

Umbraforge is much-maligned, but it can be cleaned up/streamlined and is actually really cool.

As far as the complaint that it is "fight-fight-fight", unfortunately, that's true. It will be up to you as DM to add more than that. It can be done, though, and it is very easy.

 

[fenriswolf456]

Just some of my thoughts on the SoW series, so more spoilers!

For the love of sanity do not try to use Scales of War plots to be less work for yourself. I have never in 25 years of roleplaying seen more plot holes and wtf moments in a campaign than that series. Seriously, those old Fighting Fantasy adventures had a more consistent and reasonable plot than some of the adventures in that series.

The worst cuplrit is the Umbraforge adventure, some lowlights include:
- A guy on the run from his crimelord boss deciding to go solo into his bosses fortress rather than just run away

Perhaps a bit crazy, but not too bad ... he either goes on the run with his boss in full control of all his resources, or he disrupts his boss' operations to buy himself time to really hole up. Tenuous, I agree, but there's something there.

- TLow level PCs follow a guy through a portal to the shadowfell with no compelling reason

Depends on how 'good' the party is, really. I mean, this is the guy who supplied a whole army with weapons that allowed them to be a major threat to the area. The PCs might have an interest in stopping him doing so again. The PCs should also be under the impression that the guy will be out to get them in the near future, so best to strike at him now.

- The PCs stop bad guy A from blowing up a factory used to commit crimes against nature to aid bad guy B invading the world. No explaination offered.

Yes, it does make little sense for the PCs to stop the bad guy before he complete his sabotage. I'm inclined to not let the PCs know what he's up to, just find where he is. They may still not stop him, but often PCs are shoot first, sort things out later.

- A lifetime criminal sees the PCs fight some random ogres and decides "gee they are noble, I should turn my life around" and turns against her boss.
- The PCs trust this person

This was a bit of a stretch as it is written. She's really only there to direct the PCs to the next fight, but ends up giving too much information that gives little motivation to the PCs (see the point above).

I'm planning on her being a bit of a recurring NPC, so getting rid of the connections to the main boss and having her be more mercenary. She'll still approach them for her wanting Modra to die quick rather than suffer at the hands of his boss, but won't have any info on what his plans are.

- The PCs surrender as soon as more guards turn up
- They let the bad guy solique, then hop into a portal and disappear
- An earthquake just so happens to hit at the exact right moment to let them escape

This is a bit of a sticky situation. The idea of course is that the PCs are supposed to be highly outnumbered/outmatched so that they don't attack the BBEG too soon. The trick is getting the PCs to stand down, rather than go out in a blaze of glory.

I think the intent of this entire sequence is supposed to mimic a dramatic cinematic fight. BBEG makes his offer to join forces, gets the heroic snub, orders his minions to do away with the PCs and leaves, then the earthquakes happen to throw a wrench into the plans and give the PCs a desperate escape before everything goes kablooie. Classic movie villainy.

Cool, given that your interested in SoW, I'll focus on the good things that can be used to make a sweet campaign.

The core plot elements of Scales of War can be a solid basis of a campaign.

*** Spoilers Incoming ***

- Low heroic has a simple basis. Bad guy arms dealers are giving weapons to orcs and hobgoblins to encourage them to cause problems. Good basis, easy to work with, many plot holes are easily avoided. Establishes some investigation and enmity with the heroic BBEG.

Yes, the first module is one of the modules I changed a few fights on. A bit too slavish to using the MM for baddies. Wererats? Gnomes? A bit of a mess, but can be fairly easily tweaked.

- Mid heroic, is really not connected to the plot, almost at all. That is not a bad thing. With the help of that pbworks page, you can tie them in more closely, but consider using this time to further individual PC quests and background stories.

Mines of Karak is pretty tenuously connected, I agree. Den of the Destroyer seems like it is at the time, but does end up introducing a major NPC and ally to the PCs that plays a fairly pivotal role throughout most of the paragon and epic tier.

- High heroic is good, they see the culmination of the big fights that low heroic fortold and they get to take on the first BBEG. The investigations around town need a little work, but that is easily done.

- Paragon introduces some very tenuous reasons to travel to different places, however once the PCs are there, the adventures seem internally consistent for the most part. I think at this stage it becomes easier to lose sight of why they are doing the running around. I think you need to play up the effect the war is having on the world, as much of the game revolves around a war that is not in fact taking place.

That is one thing that is really missing from the paragon tier. There's a war going on, that the good guys are apparently losing, or at least barely keeping their footing. But there's no real sense of this, at least as written. A couple of events happen, but nothing really gives the sense of desperation, so that is something that will have to be added by the DM. It really should have that LotR feel that defeat is imminent at every turn.

- I am yet to play Epic, but the last couple of adventures look really fun. The few before that seem I am less sure about.

So as I originally said, SoW won't save you from having to come up with a plot yourself really. It overly complicates a simple basis to start with, but you can easily re-write weird plot items and keep the same encounters for the most part. After that initial hurdle, there are a few filler adventures which are fine and can he left out for a less railroaded feel.

Coming up with plots and reasons for PCs to do things is the fun bit though, I just appreciate having a bunch of encounters already laid out for me and it is pretty good at that. The advice on that pbworks site is great for making the encounters a little more sensible and less gygaxian. The authors say they could only use MM1 at that stage, so had to have odd monster combinations.

Once you have completed heroic tier, I think that the campaign takes on a life of its own, so the plot suggestions and suggested reason for doing things become less of an issue. The correlation between the theoretical campaign the authors are writing for and how any individual groups campaign actually plays widens as the AP continues. That is fine though.

There really is just a framework here to work with. On it's own, it's a series of linear adventures that feature a lot of combat, interspersed with Skill Challenges and a scattering of role-play scenes. Why it seems to be good for a casual group. With some work, it can be made more indepth and role-play-rich. Depends on what you and your group are looking for.

 

[klofft]

These recent posts have been very helpful. Thanks! Reading both the adventures and the suggested tweaks, I can tell you that there is PLENTY enough story and role-playing for what my group wants.

On the upper levels, I'm concerned about my laziness in fixing the math will lead to a problem, but I suppose I have quite a while to worry about that.

I'm also interested in hearing other reports of people who had good experiences with it.

 

[mcmillan]

I've been running my players through and they just finished up Den of Destroyer. I'll agree with the others in saying it seems to be a decent core storyline, with a few big holes and feels a little flat roleplaying wise, but overall my player's seem to be enjoying it. A few major tweaks I made:

1. I shrank the delve in Rescue at Rivenroar, since it seemed to have the potential to drag on for a while - instead I ended up running the Slaying Stone adventure for level two (it has the players looking for an artifact in the ruins of an old city that's been taken over by goblins. Seemed to make sense to have the goblins also looking for it under the instructions of Sarshan). I also made the sword they recover in the first adventure a magic item to give it a bit more significance given its later importance. In hindsight this ended up taking away the motivation to go back to Rivenroar, and if I were to do it over I would have just started them in Overlook to begin with.

2. For Bodrin's Watch I gave them the option to do the mission as written or take part in the main big battle, and they opted to go with fighting on the walls. Still had them rescue Kalad though, this time he was the leading a group that were at a wall breach - the party came in and pull Kalad and as many other unconscious guards as they could to a second defense point before they got completely overrun.

3. Unlike some, I didn't have much trouble getting my players to go into the gate to Umbraforge, but once they realized where they were, they decided to go back right away and destroy the gate, rather than dealing with the army on the other side. I filled in the gap with some foreshadowing of the final heroic tier adventure by having them find out some members of the anarchist group that was mentioned in the description of Overlook are actually being controlled in the same way that will come up again with the more prominent leaders later on.

4. I dropped the Mines of Karak since it seemed similar to the Slaying Stone, and skipped straight to the Den of the Destroyer, though I changed from Gnolls to tieflings to tie into one player's backstory. I'm still trying to decide how I want to fill in the gap before they're ready for The Temple Between. Depending on which hook my players take, they'll probably end up either tracking down the main leaders of the tiefling group I created, or go back to Overlook where I'll scale down the final fight with Sarshan from the first adventure of paragon tier. I think this order works a little better, especially since I'm likely to move around the time they'd wrap up heroic tier, so the battle at the end of Temple Between will probably be the campaign ending.

 

[Unwise]

I could be wrong, but I think the math in the modules improves as the game goes on. By the end most of the monsters are custom made or from MM3, so the math seems pretty decent.

[MENTION=6681949]mcmillan[/MENTION] had a similar experience to most groups I think. It is fair to say that many groups will:
A) Get bored with the length of Rescue at Riverroar
B) Expect awesome Helms Deep scenes from Bordrin's Watch and be disappointed if they don't get to participate in them. This is a shame as the last fight in that module is great.
C) Leave the second they have had a look at what is on the other side of the portal to the Shadowfell. Then call in a bunch of guards to sort it out.
D) Be at least a bit suspicious of Bram Ironfell sending them away for a month on an unrelated job (Lost Mines). A portion of PCs will feel they should not do it at this vital time, if they do it might be from feeling railroaded.
E) Den of the Devourer has no real purpose to the plot either. The bit at the end is very important, but really does not fit there very well anyway. You could just move that to any other place that makes more sense.

All of these things make for a fine campaign, but require the GM to foresee these things happening and have alternative adventures plotted out.

In my case, I did the following to address those points:
1) Simply removed the undead from the first adventure, along with all the gnomes and wererats that really should not have been there in the first place. This led to some empty areas, which suited me well.
2) I designed a simple castle wall defence, the map was very easy. I added in a few seige towers storming the place which PCs could fight their way into and sabotage. Included a few skill challenges to organise rookie militia.
3) The PCs reported the portal, the city guards swoop in and take some bad guys captive. The bad guys spill the beans about a secret fort in the mountains. The PCs investigate and I get to just use the maps and most encounters from the original adventure anyway.
4) The PCs find a note written in the Shadowfell dialect of common, telling Bram Ironfell to reopen that mine, as the special silver it produces will be needed. This makes the PCs suspicious, so they want to investigate and don't just feel they are being put out of hte picture for a while. In my game, the Silver Sword is missing some parts and needs a special silver to reforge it.
5) I ran Den of the Devourer almost as is, but just made it a side adventure. The PCs find the gnolls have the Shadowfell weapons, which tied it in 'accidently'. I skipped the last scene. Instead, in another short side adventure, they reclaim a lost temple of Bahumut and the High Altar is used free the swords power.

One last thing, the adventure path assumes that either players are very slow witted or GMs are terrible, as in the final heroic tier adventure there is a "dun dun dun!!!!" reveal, that the bad guy that the PCs have been tracking down since level 2 or so is in fact....a bad guy! I get the feeling this is a product of having different authors.

 

[fenriswolf456]

Good to know potential sticking points in the modules, a great help.

I could be wrong, but I think the math in the modules improves as the game goes on. By the end most of the monsters are custom made or from MM3, so the math seems pretty decent.

It's mostly solos that need modification, the rest i think you can get by on without needing to do anything. Thankfully the bulk of solos appear later on in the series when the newer formats were brought in. I ended up replacing the two Berbalangs found in the heroic tier with other encounters, after spending far too long trying to figure out just how they are a credible threat even in the slightest on their own. I plan to tweak other underpowered solos soon.

@mcmillan had a similar experience to most groups I think. It is fair to say that many groups will:
A) Get bored with the length of Rescue at Riverroar

1) Simply removed the undead from the first adventure, along with all the gnomes and wererats that really should not have been there in the first place. This led to some empty areas, which suited me well.

Depends on the group, I think. But cutting out the undead means you'll have to furnish a few encounters to help level the PCs. Perhaps a bit more of a divide between where the goblins are and the undead, with maybe one of the missing townsfolk and/or missing items having already been given to them, then use the undead areas as a different tomb/encounter area.

B) Expect awesome Helms Deep scenes from Bordrin's Watch and be disappointed if they don't get to participate in them. This is a shame as the last fight in that module is great.

2) I designed a simple castle wall defence, the map was very easy. I added in a few seige towers storming the place which PCs could fight their way into and sabotage. Included a few skill challenges to organise rookie militia.

Maybe. The module does make note of letting the character participate in the actual battle on the walls, but there's no real info. I would think they could be satisfied with the final showdown though. Plus they get their Helm's Deep in The Temple Between (with their very own Witch King stand-in even!).

C) Leave the second they have had a look at what is on the other side of the portal to the Shadowfell. Then call in a bunch of guards to sort it out.

3) The PCs reported the portal, the city guards swoop in and take some bad guys captive. The bad guys spill the beans about a secret fort in the mountains. The PCs investigate and I get to just use the maps and most encounters from the original adventure anyway.

This does seem to be a concern. I think I'll have it that they can't use the portal again right away, so keeping them stuck on the other side. Then hint that the trail is growing colder by the minute if they haven't progressed onwards. I do like your 'fix' in having them officially sent in to investigate anyway.

D) Be at least a bit suspicious of Bram Ironfell sending them away for a month on an unrelated job (Lost Mines). A portion of PCs will feel they should not do it at this vital time, if they do it might be from feeling railroaded.

4) The PCs find a note written in the Shadowfell dialect of common, telling Bram Ironfell to reopen that mine, as the special silver it produces will be needed. This makes the PCs suspicious, so they want to investigate and don't just feel they are being put out of hte picture for a while. In my game, the Silver Sword is missing some parts and needs a special silver to reforge it.

Well, I think they're supposed to be a little suspicious of him anyway. But it's not too unrelated either. Re-opening a supposed rich mine for resources is important for Outlook, and things aren't dire at this time. The orc invasion is dealt with, and the Githyanki haven't started their attacks yet. The only real concern is the arms dealer Sarshan, but with Umbraforge done in, it's more a personal concern. But I do agree this one is pretty much a side quest with only a very tenuous connection that the characters won't likely find out.

E) Den of the Devourer has no real purpose to the plot either. The bit at the end is very important, but really does not fit there very well anyway. You could just move that to any other place that makes more sense.

5) I ran Den of the Devourer almost as is, but just made it a side adventure. The PCs find the gnolls have the Shadowfell weapons, which tied it in 'accidently'. I skipped the last scene. Instead, in another short side adventure, they reclaim a lost temple of Bahumut and the High Altar is used free the swords power.

It's at least more directly tied to Sarshan, though the as written reason for going has nothing to do with that. I'm thinking of having a letter from Fangren to Sarshan on the gnolls in Umbraforge, and jog the PCs memories if they don't make the connection from the story the sword tells. Should give the PCs the extra push they need.

I do like the temple of Bahamut idea though, very flavourable and in keeping with the story arc.

One last thing, the adventure path assumes that either players are very slow witted or GMs are terrible, as in the final heroic tier adventure there is a "dun dun dun!!!!" reveal, that the bad guy that the PCs have been tracking down since level 2 or so is in fact....a bad guy! I get the feeling this is a product of having different authors.

Not sure what you mean, I don't remember any 'big reveal' like that. Are you speaking of Sarshan? The PCs know this emphatically from their run-in with him in Umbraforge.

One thing I found is that a lot of the adventure hooks and events are hinged on the fact that the PCs and Amyria become fast friends and allies. The only thing is, she has no interaction with the PCs for two entire modules, then out of the blue calls upon the PCs. I plan to have her join the PCs for the chasing down and final confrontation in the Mottled Tower, hoping this will at least foster some connections between her and the PCs to help with all their future interactions.

Kalad is another fast friend and ally, though he will likely have some time with the PCs in the second half of Bordrin's Watch, though thinking of having him accompany the PCs to Umbraforge if they are light on radiant damage.

One of my biggest concerns are the Skill Challenges involving the Coalition formation/leadership. The long formation of the coalition challenge followed by an investigative challege in Bitter Glass seems rather long and dry. Then the leadership challenge in Stone-Skinned King, while an interesting set up, seems absurdly long ... going by events, it'll take weeks in game time to resolve, which is rather stretching credibility as the Coalition is supposedly in it neck-deep with the war going on. Anyone have any insight/suggestions on these?