D&D General Adventurers in Faerun-The Book of Low and Mid Level Adventures?

[Zardnaar]

I think if there was really cool content at those levels, people would engage it.

Remember that a campaign doesn't have to "get to" high level -- you can start there.

We've done tgat in most of our high level games tbh. It still sucks.

Those games are often ones shots or fizzle out fast. Doesn't matter what edition. We made it to level 19 once in a monthy haul munchkin 2E game.

5E the extreme upper limit is 13-14. Combat takes to long, encounter designs a pain, fun vs work ratio is off.

4E tge grind killed us. Never made it past level 7.

B/X better level 8/9 area isnt as bad as the other editions. Easiest D&D ever for DM to run. Games capped at 14. Modern players will get bored

BECMI. Like B/X but worse. Levels 15-36 may as well not exist.

1E. Essentially a 10 level game.

2E. Better than 1E but level 12/13 similar issues. Easier to run than post 3E though.

 

[Zardnaar]

Do (general) you think that if PLAYING high level 5E characters was easier -- not so many options, easier math, some other element -- more people would RUN high level 5E? I have never found 5E difficult at higher levels as a GM -- at least, certainly not as difficult as 3.x. The biggest problem (as we have discussed a number of times here) is that most high level monsters in 5E are terribly designed for that purpose. But since I have developed a solid work around, I don't worry aboutt hat so much.

In other words, are players actually the barrier to more high level play in 5E?

It would make it easier but doesn't solve the main problem. Real life time required to get there.

Then you get to level 13 and want to stop and probably should have stopped at 10 or 11.

 

[Zardnaar]

In order to do that, they would have to know how to do that. WotC aren’t holders of secret lore. If the experienced players on this forum don’t know how to do it neither does WotC.

I know how to do it. Its not worth the grind. I can do it but dont want to.

I could do it or run 4E but at that point I would want to be paid basically. It takes about an hour of prep per hour of play. If you really want to ace it more like 2.

My games 13. Last session is Sunday. Mein gott just let it end. I've lost interest, some players have and 3 are already planning their next character.

 

[Reynard]

We've done tgat in most of our high level games tbh. It still sucks.

It would make it easier but doesn't solve the main problem. Real life time required to get there.

These statements seem at odds.

 

[Reynard]

Lack of time, really. Were I to hack 5e for better high level play, I think I'd try to build content for both DMs and players. So maybe something like this:

• Classes go to level 10 as normal
• For level 11+, the DM picks a campaign style and the classes get features that speak to that

5e as currently built assumes that same flow of play and core play loop from levels 1 to 20. I think that's a fundamental mistake. Earlier versions of D&D had it right in that the game needed to change in a fundamental way (shifting from adventuring to domain management) to remain interesting.

I like this. What, I wonder, are the kinds of high level campaigns that would require some rules forking?

Domain management (and, one assumes, war).
Becoming and/or fighting gods or other epic level entities.
SAVE THE WORLD.
And we should make room for Just More Adventures But In Ever Weirder Places.

 

[Zardnaar]

These statements seem at odds.

How so?

 

[Reynard]

How so?

It seemed to suggest that you can in fact just start there, but then reiterate that getting there is the main barrier.

 

[Alby87]

I agree, but there could still be more support for GMs. Show them how to make effective high level encounters that are fun and engaging. Talk about what kinds of challenges become trivialized by different kinds of high level abilities, and how to use those high level abilities instead of nerfing them. there is absolutely room -- need, even -- for a high level adventures book, even if it is just a big section of some "DMG 2".

Always thinking that this should be the way, probably also written in some other posts by me. D&D needs a book on how to do Tier 3 and 4.

Explain the most game-breaking spells, magic items and PC options, how to avoid common pitfalls when making encounters.
Explain how to make really engaging encounters, both explorations (traps and more) and combats.
Add some mass combat/dominion. Something really light, less that the war machine in BECMI. Just to give the story element to create a PC run dominion. Coupled with Bastions, would be easy

Add some monsters for planes, to add to Mordy and Planescape monsters, and you have a High Level DM's book.

 

[Zardnaar]

It seemed to suggest that you can in fact just start there, but then reiterate that getting there is the main barrier.

Ah gotcha.

Rephrase. If you play from low level it takes a long time IRL to get there.

If you start their you remember why you dont like getting there.

Another side effect is starting magic items. I'll handwave it an let PCs pick stuff that I expect high level PCs to have. +3 weapon sure why not.

Sone editions can heavily into buy what you want. 3E and 4E. Lends themselves towards combo building and the PCs parachute straight into the game.

Modern D&D is also very build dominated. The Conjure Minor Elements example. The "broken" build didnt even come online until level 12-14. If you had to play it from lvl 2 its kinda terrible. Good youtube thumbnail 400+ damage!!!!!!

I suspect a lot of the broken 3.5 builds for example were actually theory craft builds.

These days I'm more if your builds not goid by level 6 dont bother. If your class doesn't become good until level 10 or 13 dont bother.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That said, WotC could provide examples on how they would do it with the experience and wisdom that they have, and their expectations on how their game should work mechanically speaking.

I don’t think “we don’t play at that level” is something WotC can really admit to.