D&D 5E adventurers in your world: common or rare?

[S'mon]

I agree with you that much of the time we can use abstracted stat blocks in our games (regardless of what we envision is behind them!) Caveating that for me an absolute resistance to NPCs with character classes feels less helpful. Say our PC Monk has the common backstory of studying for years at a monastery containing 144 monks. None of whom are allowed Monk character class levels!? As an aside, a flat-out disconnect between PCs and all other inhabitants of their world causes dissonance... for me at least!

Can we directly equate CR to tiers? You seem to be saying it is 1:1 to class level. Is that right?

I'm not against statting the occasional NPC out with the PC rules. Depends on the character. It's workable in 5e (unlike 4e).

PC CR is probably somewhere around 3/4 of their level in 5e. 3e tried Level = CR and it didn't work. Pathfinder went with Level-1 = CR, doesn't really work either but closer since 3e/PF CR system is +2 Levels = x2 Power.

 

[S'mon]

Faerun (pop 70m)
Tier 1 - 700,000
Tier 2 - 140,000
Tier 3 - 14,000
Tier 4 - 1400
+Epic - 140

It feels safe to assume that we only know about a proportion of Epic level characters i.e. there are more that could be encountered or written about. Still, 140 seems high doesn't it? Perhaps the original though to assume an order of magnitude fewer at each tier is right after all?
.....

70 epic tier NPCs for the entire continent, known and unknown, sounds okay for me. YMMV. In my experience as a DM, being able to turn to a strong cast of NPCs who can meet PCs on their own terms leads to the most enjoyable and challenging situations. Consider abilities such as the Diviner's Portent, which gets very interesting when taken together with Bardic Inspiration and the Lucky feat! Treating MM stat blocks as the limit of complexity for NPCs rules out such fascinating options, or at best makes them much harder to balance! I'd go so far to say that for the greatest gameplay, character class NPCs become more valuable at high level than low. Because of the burgeoning power of PCs, and their range of options.

I would think for Faerun that 14 CR 21+, 140 CR 17-20, 1400 CR 11-16 and 14000 CR 5-10
probably does fit the world as traditionally presented quite well. Many D&D worlds have NO CR 21+ NPCs
but the FR is an outlier, as I said.

There is certainly nothing wrong with giving NPCs PC-class abilities but it's usually best just to
pick desired ones rather than build them PC-style. If an ability can be translated into "more hp" or "more damage" then just give them that. No one cares if your NPC has Second Wind or Stone's Endurance or
even Resist (All) - just give more hp.

BTW what level are you GMing at Vonklaude? I would recommend you avoid theorycrafting away from actual play unless you really enjoy it as a pastime in itself.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[S'mon]

Sounds about right.

You saw what I did there.

 

[Mephista]

By default NPCs don't have a Level (and giving them levels is the opposite of time saving),

Unless they're casters, because then they very specifically do have caster levels. If we're dealing with pure caster npcs, that gives you their level.

 

[steeldragons]

And working by tier is quicker than by level! -snip- Our intent is to propose guidelines, not straitjacket DMs into them. Here again, working by tiers promotes a greater sense of flexibility than going level by level.

Why? How so? If you are going to have an encounter happen...if the PCs are walking up to someone to talk to or fight a classed NPC...I [the DM] need to know what level they are. What their available features and abilities are...saying "tier 1: levels 1-5 [or whatever it is]" does not actually "help" me or make things "quicker." I need to figure out, or at least be able to look up, what the given NPC can do.

I certainly agree with you about consistency. Remember Tolkien's comment about consistency lending credibility to fantasy worlds? Guidelines like these help DMs bring their world to life for players.

I guess I just don't see how using "tiers" vs. "levels" is any more (or less) a useful guideline for DMs. Just a matter of DMing style and play preference from what I can tell. Nor that anyone here is "agreeing" with you about tiers any moreso than any other system for doing this they like.

I feel like our construct for density of character class individuals should at least be able to explain the baseline D&D world, i.e. Faerun.

Ooooh. <hastily gathers up valuables>

It's been lovely chatting with you. <Grabs a packaged bright yellow suit. You notice the bio-hazard symbol stamp on top. Makes way to a sturdy looking steel reinforced door.>

I'm sure we'll have loads of fun times to come. <Wrenches the apparently very heavy door open. Pauses in the doorway.>

<Turns and smiles at you, nervously.> I'm sure it wasn't intentional. Cheerio! <ducks into bunker and seals door. You hear multiple clicks and whirring sounds as what you presume to be various locking mechanisms engage>

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

In my FR game people who go out and adventure are very rare, no adventurers guilds or stuff like that. Almost nobody is going into lost temples, tombs, and deep pits in the earth. Some would say you have to be nuts to even consider it.

 

[S'mon]

Unless they're casters, because then they very specifically do have caster levels. If we're dealing with pure caster npcs, that gives you their level.

Caster level is not class level as you well know.

 

[Lanefan]

Caster level is not class level as you well know.

But knowing one often gives a very good idea as to the other.

You're a wizard who can cast 4th level spells but not 5th? You're either a 7th or 8th level wizard (who may have levels in other classes also).

 

[Sunseeker]

I think it would be more helpful for default 5e to think in terms of NPC CR rather than NPC Level. By default NPCs don't have a Level (and giving them levels is the opposite of time saving), but they do have a CR. Then you can meaningfully discuss NPC demographics in terms of challenge posed to PCs.

Only initially. Once you've made up a 1-20 of each class (I don't assign write down a race and use the standard array for stats) it's as easy to pull out the sheet for the X level Y class you need for the humanoid foe your party is fighting today.

Sure, you're making your own Humanoid Manual, but once it's done, it's done forever.