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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RUMBLETiGER" data-source="post: 6294938" data-attributes="member: 6674868">A few thoughts...First, I know nothing about spell balance, can't help you there.  Secondly, It might help if we knew what level and classes your PCs are.Thirdly, I'm not sure how this is not railroading the party, since you have a very specific objective for them to lose the battle.  There is nothing wrong with this per-se, as long as it's clear with everyone that you are doing this on purpose and it's part of the story.  I really like how you've built it into the combat encounter and I could see it being entertaining. Fourth, consider the Witch Hex <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/common-hexes/hex-slumber-su" target="_blank">Slumber</a> as an effective way to try to knock out your PCs.  No HD cap on the target, it's a Supernatural ability so shouldn't have and somatic or verbal components.  The DC for the save increases with the Witche's level, so make it a high level npc.  Just keep in mind that one cannot be the target of this hex more than once per 24 hours.  Perhaps combine this Hex (will save) + Drow poison, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/blue-whinnis" target="_blank">Blue Winnis</a> poison (Fort saves) + other options to target different PCs with different save strengths. The spell <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/suffocation" target="_blank">Suffocation</a> should do what you're aiming to do here, as long as the caster dismisses the spell after the PC falls unconscious.  As long as the caster pays attention and dismisses the spell, you don't end up killing the PC. Finally, consider other ways to incapacitate the PCs.  if you can bind them in a spell or trap, you can get manacles or something similar on them while they are conscious.  Perhaps some are asleep, some are just bound.  The greatest of combatants is still stuck at the bottom of a 20' pit if he has no way to get out.  This allows those who stay awake to see what is happening/where they are going even if they can't do anything about it, they can report to the party members who did fall asleep.  If you really need them to be asleep or unable to perceive what is going on, slip the bound PC a drug or blindfold/gag/stuff a head in a bag after they are locked in chains.However, be prepared that this might fail. Players like winning, and so they're going to try everything they can to avoid failing at this. I tried knocking my party out once in a 3.5 game. They had escaped prison and had a Bounty Hunter pursuing. My plan was to have the main Bounty Hunter keep them occupied while the ranged attacker hit the party with Drow poison arrows. (<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/drow-poison" target="_blank">Here is info for the Pathfinder Version</a>) and I increased the DC for resisting the effects. The plan was for the Archer to keep filling them with arrows until the entire party went down and was manacled.What actually happened was the Sorcerer went to sleep and was bored for the rest of the night, while the party killed the Archer, engaged in an epic battle with the Bounty Hunter who was much higher level than the PCs, and the PC Barbarian killed the Bounty Hunter, than died when his HP dropped after rage ended. It was awesome, exciting, (they still talk about the battle year later) but totally not what I had planned. I let them ruin my plans and adjusted accordingly. Be prepared to do the same.</blockquote>

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