D&D 5E Against the Giants for 5e

[dagger]

Thanks for reading!

The group wants me to run Against the Giants (AtG) since only one player has been through it, and its legendary.
I have played it 3 times and run it once in years pass. Yes, I know about Storm Kings Thunder (I have read it), but I don’t feel like running that. Also that’s not what the players want…

The problem with AtG is the freaking giant encounters are insanely deadly for 5e. I have run it using AD&D 2e and the giants from 2e were even borderline too powerful for 1e PC's. I know AtG is supposed to have a lot of PCs and maybe henchmen, but the most we will have is 6.

Possible options:

• Scale back the encounters…..REALLY scale them back.

• Or maybe power up the PC’s (higher stat points and more gear)

• Run it when they are higher level, I would rather not do that

Does anyone have any thoughts? Thank you!!

 

[jgsugden]

Scale back. I also introduced lesser giant in my game to make use of all those large sized figures I own... they'Re powered around the midpoint between an ogre and a giant. They'd be a good way to depose the combats a bit.

 

[Shiroiken]

I am currently running AtG, and they've made it to the Hall of the Fire Giant King. The biggest issue I've run across isn't the deadliness of the encounters, but the lack of room for the number of creatures. In AD&D they assumed Giants only took up a 10' square, but in 5E they take up 15', and that extra 5' make a big difference for combat and just fitting in the rooms(no pun intended). I've had to change tactics and move/remove creatures just to get things to fit. If you are concerned about the deadliness, then removing monsters will help with this issue as well.

I would say level 9-10 is a good starting point, and try to get them to level about each adventure. Since you have an experienced player, it shouldn't be hard to remind them that these are HARD adventures designed to test the Player's (not Character's) skills. I think letting the players know that stealth is a far better strategy than charging in is almost a necessity (my group had to argue a lot with the Barbarian PC to keep that from happening).

 

[Pauln6]

I ran the final few encounters of the Frost Giants with a party of 6 level 10-13th level characters (Level 10 hunter ranger; Level 11 thief, Level 12 champion, Level 13 battlemaster (Fighter 10/Lore bard 3), Level 13 Scout fighter, Level 13 war cleric (Fighter 2, cleric 11). However, I converted the module from the 4e version so that there was a bit more variety in the monster builds. I tweaked Grungnur a bit (+1 HD, +2 strength, legendary actions, increased hp to 7 per hit die) and gave his bride a lair action (smashing the stalactites).

They were excellent at killing guards with surprise but the final battle was a challenge. Three PCs went down, were revived, and then went down again when reinforcements arrived (2 giants and the swordthain who was a giant with the sentinel feat). They had earlier joined forces with Grugnur's enemies to overthrow him and they were saved by the intervention of Syldi the Ice-Shaper, but they would probably have just about survived.

My observation is that healing is a bit weak and huge creature damage makes the fights swingy. Make sure they are stocked with healing potions, and consider allowing PCS to spend hit dice to heal extra when they receive magical healing (say spend 1HD per die of magical healing restored) otherwise healing just props you up for one round of damage.

I like that the giants are so dangerous so that an all-out assault is likely to fail. I would say play up the politics more. Allow them to target their attacks more wisely. Good thieves can do it but not vengeful ones etc.

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6777422]Pauln6[/MENTION]
Wow, no arcane caster but a bard (if that counts ) in your group. That means no access to fire balls and mass damage spell. It would've change a lot of the dynamics in the fight. Yet it must be quite a tough group as their hp must be way ahead of what I usualy see in my groups.

From memory, hill giant steading should be easy. The frost giants will be a bit more tricky as the lay out of the caves are prone to let the giant fast on the intruders. I'd cut down the numbers 25% to be sure to be ok. Then again it depends greatly on the group itself and the amount of magic available.

The hardest, as expected will be the fire giants. The fact that drows are around and that the silence spell is now static make it likely that the alarm will be sound relatively soon in the first few rooms. Again it will be a case by case basis with different group but I would replace many giants with ogres slaves/minions. Right off the bat I'd say maybe as much as 30% to 40% if not more.

The drow part should be hard to judge as well but I think we can leave them as is.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes these are characters adapted from 1e or 2e that have been ported across throughout the years so their stats will be above average and they have some decent magic items. I don't think their hp are much higher than normal though. The group does have a druid/bard and rogue/warlock but we left them out of the 5e part of the game as the players were not available and it's a pain to play someone else's spell caster. No fireballs etc but in the rift, I thought fireballs would be a bad idea anyway. The champion has a flametongue though. Fighter multiple attacks make a fair bit of difference though, especially where they can focus attacks. I think 5e is more finely balanced so that the lack of a spell-caster will not leave you hugely disadvantaged.

Grugnur's high AC made him a lot tougher so I agree that the fire giant section will likely be very tough indeed in 5e.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

This might be of interest: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/189455/Classic-Modules-Today-G123-Against-the-Giants

 

[bgbarcus]

5e PC's do a lot of damage quickly and, between hit dice on short rest and full heal on long rest, they heal up way faster than in 1e. That is partially balanced by the higher damage output of 5e giants but it still doesn't seem like the module is any more deadly now than it was in AD&D days. Keep in mind that it (G1) is written for nine 9th level PC's. You could leave the monster numbers as written, change the map grid from 10' squares to 15' or 20' squares and let the players bring loyal henchmen to fill out the numbers (just like we did way back then). Six 9th level PC's, each with a 5th or 6th level henchman should be able to handle G1 as long as they pay attention and use smart tactics.

One or two wizards would be very handy as they can make a huge difference in combat by controlling and shaping the encounter areas. If you play with flanking rules, the henchman will make it the party even more effective in combat.

 

[Croesus]

...but it still doesn't seem like the module is any more deadly now than it was in AD&D days.

I have to disagree on this. Compare hill giants between 1E and 5E:

1E - average hit points = 37, average damage per round = 17 (if all attacks hit)
5E - average hit points = 105, average damage per round = 36 (if all attacks hit)

Characters have a lot more hit points, so the extra damage might not matter. But those extra hit points really do. Consider that a 1E 9th level wizard is throwing around 9d6 fireballs, which do an average of 31.5 points of damage, half with a save. A 9th level 5E wizard is only throwing around 8d6 fireballs, average 28 points, half with save. So the 1E wizard's fireball averages 85% of the hill giant's hit points, while the 5E wizard's fireball only averages 25% of hit points. One good tactic in 1E was to lob a couple fireballs, then see if anything was still standing. That won't work in 5E. Bottom line, the 5E giants will be around a lot longer to cause damage to the party.

Six 9th level PC's, each with a 5th or 6th level henchman should be able to handle G1 as long as they pay attention and use smart tactics.

I agree, if you have a party of six PCs and six henchmen. The recommended party in Liberation of Geoff was 9 total characters of 9th level. Not sure how many groups play with so many PCs/henchmen any more, given that 5E characters have a lot more options, requiring more attention to play well. Even with such a large group, a head-on assault will likely be a bloodbath, and not necessarily in the PCs' favor.

 

[bgbarcus]

Consider that a 1E 9th level wizard is throwing around 9d6 fireballs, which do an average of 31.5 points of damage, half with a save. A 9th level 5E wizard is only throwing around 8d6 fireballs, average 28 points,.

I think this is a common mistake when comparing editions. The role of a 1e magic-user was to blast monsters with high damage spells. The 5e wizard only fits that role as an evoker, other schools are more about controlling the battlefield or making other characters more effective.

Party sizes are likely the biggest difference. But even in 1e, if you had a smaller group, it was necessary to adjust the module. I used to run games with eight or nine players plus several henchmen. In 5e, I have six players and allow no more than three henchman (who are close to the PC levels) to go into a dungeon with the party. Even that number is hard to manage in big encounters.