Age old question: Handling of prisoners

When I'm playing, I always vote to kill the prisoners and the rest of the party always overrules me. It works for us. They get to be Good guys, and I get to say "I told you so."

If they serve an honorable nation, releasing them on parole is a perfectly viable option. In general, PCs shouldn't be punished for being merciful unless it's mercy beyond all reason-- and even then, sometimes it should pay off.

On the other hand, a Paladin in service to his liege would often have the lawful authority to execute field justice.
 

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Mercy beyond all reason is not a Good act. It is putting others at risk to avoid the anguish of having to do what is Right.

Don't tell me. Tell the people who write the comic books. I make it a point not to mix my notions of morality with the morals presented in fantasy roleplaying games.
 


I'm having that sort of trouble. It's been escalating and I'm not sure exactly when I need to step in and provide some sort of consequences.

1) After a fight with some goblin cultists, some goblins were severely wounded or unconscious. A clearly evil goblin assassin who was an temporary ally of conveinance told the mostly good aligned PC's to kill the wounded, imply that they would do this because they were just like him. The PC's obligingly killed the prisoners.
2) After a fight with some human cultists, the leader of the human cultists had been mortally wounded and was clearly dying. Not content to just let her bleed out, one of the PC's went over and cut her throat.
3) After a second fight with some human cultists, one was taken prisoner and intimidated into leading the party to a hidden shrine. While there, some of the PC's began openly discussing whether to kill the prisoner. The prisoner, though having his hands tied behind his back, therefore decided when an oppurtunity presented itself to possibly escape to flee. The PC's pursued the prisoner - who was still bound and badly wounded, eventually shooting him in the back with an arrow and then not content with that stabbed him after he stumbled and fell for good measure.

These acts to me are sufficiently ruthless that if they aren't evil, neither do they seem to me to be good even though so far the victims have all been not nice individuals. It is however cold blood murder, and I don't really know another way to describe. Under the circumstances it has occurred in so far I could accept them as a character flaw in even a good character, but noone took a flaw of that sort or even really hinted at it in the background. I readily accept the behavior from the neutral members of the party, but I'm not sure how I feel about the good aligned members either engaging in it, or just standing around turning a blind eye to it. Three of the members of the party are in good aligned religious organizations. One is the equivalent of a Paladin, and another is a cleric. How ruthless toward the bad guys can the good guys get without being indistinguishable from those that they fight? I mean, they've pretty much validated the Goblin Assassins opinion of them thus far.
 

I do tire of seeing paladins being

I don't think I would ever play a Paladin in someone else's game. The sheer lunacy of the restrictions some people place on Paladins-- far beyond anything justified by the rules themselves-- make it impossible to play one in anything other than the strictest Lawful Stupid fashion.

I've heard stories about Paladins losing their powers for striking opponents that had been stunned, for feinting in combat, for flanking, for lying about being a Paladin while infiltrating an evil temple... Paladins are supposed to live up to a higher standard than others, even other LG characters, but those standards are based on fighting evil and helping the innocent. If the conduct restrictions don't allow them to actually do that, then the DM should just ban Paladins outright.
 

1) After a fight with some goblin cultists, some goblins were severely wounded or unconscious. A clearly evil goblin assassin who was an temporary ally of conveinance told the mostly good aligned PC's to kill the wounded, imply that they would do this because they were just like him. The PC's obligingly killed the prisoners.

Are Goblins in your game people, however evil, or are they monsters? If the PCs have reason to believe that Goblins are irredeemable or that, even defeated, they still represented a threat to nearby communities, then killing them was justified and possibly even necessary. In a world where it is possible to summon demons that can lay waste to entire cities, cults are serious business.

If your PCs had ever had dealings with peaceful Goblins, and these Goblins hadn't been members of an evil cult, then I might be more inclined to view this as questionable.

2) After a fight with some human cultists, the leader of the human cultists had been mortally wounded and was clearly dying. Not content to just let her bleed out, one of the PC's went over and cut her throat.

That sounds like a mercy killing to me. They'd already killed her, and they weren't going to heal her, so why allow her to suffer while she bleeds out?

3) After a second fight with some human cultists, one was taken prisoner and intimidated into leading the party to a hidden shrine. While there, some of the PC's began openly discussing whether to kill the prisoner. The prisoner, though having his hands tied behind his back, therefore decided when an oppurtunity presented itself to possibly escape to flee. The PC's pursued the prisoner - who was still bound and badly wounded, eventually shooting him in the back with an arrow and then not content with that stabbed him after he stumbled and fell for good measure.

Aside from my earlier comments about cultists in a world with actual demons, this strikes me as considerably less okay. They took him prisoner and allowed him to bargain for his life, and then killed him anyway. The fact that he tried to escape counts in their favor, but he didn't make a run for it until they started discussing killing him-- breaking their bargain-- right in front of them.

That's an Evil act in my book, and it's time for the religious characters to start atoning.
 

Are Goblins in your game people, however evil, or are they monsters?

This question doesn't really get to the heart of the problem.

You have to distinguish between things as they are and things as they are understood to be. The nature of the world can be one thing, but people could be ignorant of it, especially if they aren't well educated. (And in some cases, being well educated might actually breed ignorance, because the academic establishment is wrong.)

In my world, goblins are often considered people and treated as people. At the time of these events, the PC's had already seen goblins living in human cities and working along side them.

Many people are however 'monsters'. The defining trait of 'people' in my game world is that they can be both good and evil. In the case of goblins, because of their history, many people including some highly educated people believe that they have lost their status as people and are now unredeemably monsters - or more specifically that they should no longer count as 'free people' because they've lost the capacity to choose good. A very large body of evidence exists reinforcing this belief, so it is certainly reasonable to believe that. And socially speaking, some societies have adopted the policy that goblins are simply monsters and treat them as such, and others have adopted the policy that they are people and treat them as such.

You'll note that I've carefully avoided answering the question. Questions like whether goblins are people or not are things I deliberately try to leave vague because people in the campaign world disagree over the issue. Therefore, I don't want to bias the players by providing a definative answer by the DM. If the players uncover clear answers one way or the other in the course of the story, that's one thing. But campaign level secrets like the origin of the gods, whether or not goblins truly still have free will, and so forth are not things that I like to answer OOC.

So the further question raised here is how much a person can be held accountable for their actions in ignorance.

If the PCs have reason to believe that Goblins are irredeemable or that, even defeated, they still represented a threat to nearby communities, then killing them was justified and possibly even necessary. In a world where it is possible to summon demons that can lay waste to entire cities, cults are serious business.

Well, extenuating circumstances like this are the only reason that I'm not making the good PC's atone. Also, the party has a lean toward Chaotic which opens up more of a vigilante attitude even within Good.

That sounds like a mercy killing to me. They'd already killed her, and they weren't going to heal her, so why allow her to suffer while she bleeds out?

I don't think mercy was the motivation. The character that did this isn't a merciful character. While that's perfectly within the character of the murderer, its not supposed to be in the character of 4 out of 6 members of the party.

Aside from my earlier comments about cultists in a world with actual demons, this strikes me as considerably less okay.

Personally, I see all three as being examples of the same sort. I think this incident seems less ok to you primarily because for a while they treated the person as a person, and then after his utility was used up decided to start treating him as a thing. But, is that really worse than never treating a person as a person at all? Also, how would it effect your judgment of a person who only believed that they lived in a world with actual demons (without having evidence you'd consider proof of such a thing), who acted in the same fashion? Does the nature of the danger poised matter here? We certainly live in a world with actual nuclear and biological weapons. Isn't that sufficiently threatening?

I personally consider all three cases evil acts, but they are somewhat mitigated by extenuating circumstances (massive evidence of the danger poised by the cults), the character's general ignorance of what they were doing, and the probable execution that would have awaited all the individuals anyway where they turned over to the rough sort of medieval justice that prevails socially.

However, in two of the cases the invididuals so killed were merely flunkies who themselves were acting in ignorance and who were not in fact unswervingly committed to the goals of thier respective cults. Prior to getting themselves killed fighting the PC's, they had done very little worthy of death except 'thought crimes'. This is particularly interesting because, in accordance with the chaotic bent of the party, they previously strongly berrated another party member for commiting what they thought was a crime against thought - namely burning (or allowing to be burned) a large collection of heretical religious texts. So the question becomes, to what extent where these people really unredeemably evil, and to what extent they had simply fallen in with a bad crowd and could have been shown the error of their ways. And in the third case of the cult leader, the particular cult leader was one of the least crazy and most human and sympathetic NPC's of the cult and above all the members the one who had the most just excuse for their behavior (many of the other ones just loved violence for its own sake). None of the characters involved here have been remotely 'Joker' characters who are sociopathic killers without conscious (and I do have those), and yet, even in the case of someone like the 'Joker' we seem to demand more from our heroes than they adopt the same standards in the treatment of prisoners as a lawful evil goblin assassin.
 
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This question doesn't really get to the heart of the problem.

I think it does. Players can only operate according to the knowledge they are given by the DM; not even Paladins can be held accountable for things that they have no way of knowing. I think that holding characters to moral standards that the DM not only hasn't explained, but refused to explain, is fundamentally and grossly unfair. The characters whose alignments we're concerned with are members of a Good-aligned religious organization; if their actions were contrary to the teachings of that organization, or contrary to the will of the gods they serve, they should have known that in advance.

If the Good-aligned gods are not the final arbiters of morality in the campaign world, then the players need to be aware of this if issues of morality are going to be significant in the campaign.

In my world, goblins are often considered people and treated as people. At the time of these events, the PC's had already seen goblins living in human cities and working along side them.

In that case, the race of the goblins is no longer a factor, and the issue should be considered as if these were human cultists. The question then becomes a matter of what the PCs' options were; morally, there's no difference between killing them and hauling them back to town for the townsfolk to kill, so it's a matter of whether it is better to kill them or set them free.

You'll note that I've carefully avoided answering the question.

Punishing the characters for their actions is a definitive answer; it is also, as I pointed out above, grossly unfair. This is information that their characters should have known-- and if they did not know, it is because the gods themselves have been ambiguous on the point.

So the further question raised here is how much a person can be held accountable for their actions in ignorance.

We're playing D&D, not Mao. The players are expected to be able to know the rules in advance.

Also, the party has a lean toward Chaotic which opens up more of a vigilante attitude even within Good.

I haven't seen anything inherently Chaotic in their actions; the ethical axis has no bearing on this discussion.

Personally, I see all three as being examples of the same sort. I think this incident seems less ok to you primarily because for a while they treated the person as a person, and then after his utility was used up decided to start treating him as a thing. But, is that really worse than never treating a person as a person at all?

Yes, it is-- because if they treated him as a person, it means they recognized him as a person. This is a deliberate and knowing Evil act, which is worse than an ignorant Evil act even before considering your ambiguity concerning the morality of the game.

Also, how would it effect your judgment of a person who only believed that they lived in a world with actual demons (without having evidence you'd consider proof of such a thing), who acted in the same fashion?

That's irrelevant. They live in a world where such evidence exists.

Does the nature of the danger poised matter here? We certainly live in a world with actual nuclear and biological weapons. Isn't that sufficiently threatening?

If someone was threatening to unleash biological or nuclear weapons against my people, I would absolutely support killing them without a single doubt or reservation. I would kill them, and I would kill anyone that supported them, and I would kill anyone-- no matter how innocent-- who got in the way.

I'm not Good-aligned. Not by a long shot. But in this case, the PCs didn't do anything that I wouldn't uphold as Good behavior. What they did was arguably necessary.

I personally consider all three cases evil acts, but they are somewhat mitigated by extenuating circumstances (massive evidence of the danger poised by the cults), the character's general ignorance of what they were doing, and the probable execution that would have awaited all the individuals anyway where they turned over to the rough sort of medieval justice that prevails socially.

In that case, the PCs had a choice between killing the cultists or setting them free. There's no moral difference between killing the cultists personally and delivering them into the hands of their executioners. The PCs had a compelling reason not to set the cultists free, and if the cultists had proceeded to summon a demon and turn it loose the PCs would have been morally responsible for the consequences.

I see one Evil act here, for which "ignorance" is no excuse. The other two acts were morally ambiguous at worst, and you created that ambiguity by not providing the players with information their characters would have known.
 


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