D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query

[Noctem]

It's just a prank bro! It's just a prank!

 

[Hriston]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], in response to your statement at the end of post #55, perhaps it's because DMs on both sides of this argument are uncomfortable telegraphing to their players that battle is about to start. You could say, "The ogre has decided to attack you. Roll initiative." But that would be reading the ogre's mind for your players, giving them information their characters shouldn't have. Or you could describe the ogre's face glazing over in a look of violent resolve, but even then you aren't really telling your players that combat is actually starting. The players know the ogre's decision to attack doesn't make combat happen in that very moment. A particularly devious ogre could decide to attack a party and wait several hours after the decision is made, making conversation, entertaining his guests until they have their guard down, before taking such actions as would necessitate rolling initiative. "The ogre grabs an evil looking morning star off the wall and swings it towards you. Roll initiative," tells a player explicitly that combat is starting. I think some DMs are uncomfortable with this because they are reluctant to telegraph outside of combat an action that will be resolved in combat. Perhaps they feel that doing so would somehow violate the discrete nature of the combat turn. The role of the DM, however, involves not only asking the players to make ability checks, of which an initiative check is an example, but also letting the players know what stakes are involved in failure and success. When making an initiative check, success is rolling higher than your opponent, failure is rolling lower. You won't know what's at stake unless you know you are in combat, and you won't know you are in combat unless it starts with you or a party member describing your character making an attack, or the DM describing an attack in progress being made by a hostile creature. There's no reason why these attacks can't be resolved in initiative order.

 

[Flamestrike]

1. Initiative being called for no discernible reason as far as the players are concerned. (breaks immersion, spoils events for the players themselves, causes confusion, etc..)

Initiative is never called for no discernable reason. You narrate what triggered initiative and then roll it.

If a hidden archer attacks the party, you dont say 'You notice nothing - roll initiative'. You also dont resolve the attack and then roll initiative. What you do is:

'An arrow flies out from the darkness (you hear the creak of a bow). Roll initiative.'

2. Players being told they are surprised during round 1 for no reason they understand (or in fact no mechanical reason) because the person initiating combat (for example), in other words causing the surprise, has not yet acted or had a turn. (players questioning what's happening, confusion, having to tell them they can't do anything until the triggering creature has had a turn, assigning surprise for no actual reason since nothing has happened, etc..)

Thats your fault as a DM who cant narrate what is happeneing properly. I hope that doesnt sound snarky (im trying not to be). Its your job to provide the information.

If an invisible stalker ambushes the party, taking them totally by surprise you say:

'You all feel the wind whip up around you disturbing the dust, and sense an evil presence lurking nearby - roll initative - and you're all surprised on turn one'

Players being told they can't do anything until the person causing surprise has acted.

Thats how surprise works. You cant act on turn one if youre surprised.

Youre doing the exact same thing - youre just doing to everyone on turn 'zero'

4. Narrative issues because the person initiating combat might be required to perform certain actions for story purposes, which gets you into simply giving the NPC / PC the first position in the initiative. (story line events can be disrupted, PC plans disrupted,

What? This makes no sense. Theyve just chosen to attack the PC's. If they didnt want to attack dont attack.

The party is moving on a trail in the woods, they enter the kill zone of a goblin ambush without noticing the goblins since they are hidden (either passive or active perception failed to beat stealth). The goblin leader then fires an arrow at one of the PC's to initiate the attack (or yells out in goblin, or whatever prompts combat. Could be many things, such as triggering a trap. But let's say for the sake of the example it's an attack.)

The party are surprised and cannot act on turn one in this example.

So (as a DM) I would say 'As you walk down the trail, suddenly a hail of goblin arrows fills the sky!' Roll initaitive - youre all surprised on round 1'

I would then proceed to resolve the actions of the parties in turn order (with the PCs unable to act on turn one, seeing as they are surprised). Any Monks who rolled high enough Dex [initiative] checks could use deflect arrows, as could any spellcasters pop up a shield spell (assuming they rolled high enough initiative check).

What is your problem with this (RAW) approach?

I would resolve the attack first, then determine who hadn't noticed the goblins before the triggering event (the attack) to apply surprise as appropriate, and finally I would have everyone roll initiative and start at the top of the initiative order.

So the Goblins get two- three lots of surprise attacks. One during turn 'zero' (before initiative is rolled) then again on turn 1 (vs any surprised PCs) and then possibly again on turn 3 before teh PCs assuming they rolled a higher initaitive?

I would promptly walk out of such a game where a creature pretty much always got 2-3 turns on me before I could act.

So what happens if we go by the RAW only? First, if the triggering event is a goblin triggering a trap / making an attack that would meet your hostile intent requirement so you would roll initiative before that happens.

Yep initiative is rolled BEFORE any attacks are resolved. You can narrate the events leading up to them just fine. Arrows in the air, orcs running from the bushes, creak of armor, clash of steel, chanting arcane words, whatever.

That means that if the goblin triggering the trap / making an attack is low on the initiative order. The party is presumably surprised for no reason they understand since nothing has happened.

This isnt a flaw with the rules - Its a flaw with your ability as DM to narrate the action.

You just say 'You see a Goblin spring up and reach to trigger a trap, as a hail of goblin arrows fills the sky - roll initiative, you're all surprised on turn one'

And then proceed in initiative order, with the PCs surprised on round one.

The trap / attack that was the "hostile intent" and the "triggering event" doesn't actually follow the narrative.

It does if you narrate it properly. Again - the prolem lies in your ability to narrate, not in the rules.

For me, telling people "ok roll initiative" is less fun and interesting as narrating the event, "an arrow flies out of the bushes at you", and then asking for initiative from the party.

But you're supposed to do the latter - you're just not supposed to resolve the attack itself until the archers first turn, otherwise youre granting the archer an entire additional turn.

You dont just say 'roll initiative' and sit there with a blank look on your face when your players ask 'Why - whats going on'? Your job as DM is to narrate the action accordingly.

'The Ogre you were talking to snarls and raises its club, charging the fighter - roll initiative'

Then, on the Ogres turn, you resolve the attack. If the Ogre cant do that action anymore (say the Cleric rolled a higher initaitive and charged him first), you narrate it accordingly: 'The Ogre and the Cleric meet with a clash in the centre of the room, weapons locked together in a mighty battle'

Its no different to:

'From the darkness you hear the creak of a bow, and the twang of an arrow being loosed - roll initiative'

'You kick in the door and see 5 orcs scrambling for their weapons - roll initaitive'

etc

 

[Flamestrike]

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], in response to your statement at the end of post #55, perhaps it's because DMs on both sides of this argument are uncomfortable telegraphing to their players that battle is about to start. You could say, "The ogre has decided to attack you. Roll initiative." But that would be reading the ogre's mind for your players, giving them information their characters shouldn't have.

The Ogre screams in rage, hefts its club and starts charging at the Fighter! Roll initiative.

Its not a question of 'mindreading' - its a question of narrating the action!

If the Ogre goes first (initiative), it closes the gap before any PC can react. If the PCs go first, they might be able to drop the Ogre before it can close the gap, or maybe even charge it themselves, meeting it halfway or even possibly forcing the ogre to make a different choice on its turn in response.

 

[Hriston]

Here's an example of what I mean:

DM: The ogre swings his club at your head. What do you do?

Player: I stab him with my sword.

DM: Okay, make a Dexterity check. If you beat the ogre's Dexterity check, you can try to hit him first. If he beats your check, he gets to try to hit you first.


Now here's an example of a ranged attack from a hidden attacker:

DM: You're caught off guard by the sound of an arrow flying towards you, so you're unable to move or take actions. Is there anything else you'd like to do?

Player: Well, if the arrow hits me I'll probably want to cast my shield spell.

DM: Okay, make a Dexterity check. If you beat the hidden shooter's Dex check you'll be able to cast shield. If the shooter beats your Dex check you won't be able to cast your spell because you'll still be surprised.


Here's another with the Alert feat:

DM: As you're walking through the forest you hear an arrow whizzing towards you. What do you do?

Player: I take cover behind a tree and try to discern the location of the shooter by scanning the area the arrow seems to be coming from, so I can warn my friends.

DM: Make a Dexterity check. If you beat the shooter's check you'll be able to get behind a nearby tree and quickly scan the area for signs of the shooter before the arrow completes its flight. If you roll under the shooter's check the arrow might hit you before you can take cover.

 

[Hriston]

The Ogre screams in rage, hefts its club and starts charging at the Fighter! Roll initiative.

Its not a question of 'mindreading' - its a question of narrating the action!

I agree! Part of my point was that it's more effective to narrate a concrete trigger for entering combat ("The ogre attacks!"), rather than an abstract trigger ("The ogre decides to attack.") I can see we agree on this.

If the Ogre goes first (initiative), it closes the gap before any PC can react. If the PCs go first, they might be able to drop the Ogre before it can close the gap, or maybe even charge it themselves, meeting it halfway or even possibly forcing the ogre to make a different choice on its turn in response.

I like the way you've framed the stakes here.

 

[BoldItalic]

Here's an example of what I mean:

DM: The ogre swings his club at your head. What do you do?

Player: I stab him with my sword.

DM: Okay, make a Dexterity check. If you beat the ogre's Dexterity check, you can try to hit him first. If he beats your check, he gets to try to hit you first.

So, you're asking them to roll initiative, except you're not calling it that? Initiative rolls are dexterity checks.

The problem is, if you only do it one-on-one, that there is no turn taking outside of combat so other players can describe concurrent actions and you then have the problem of deciding timings.

Wizard: While they are squaring up, I cast Hold Monster on the ogre.
Rogue: And I sneak round the back of the ogre and stab him.

Do you ask for dexterity rolls for the wizard vs the ogre, and for the wizard vs the fighter to see whether the spell takes effect before or after the ogre strikes and before or after the fighter strikes, and for the rogue separately against the ogre, the wizard and the fighter to decide when he strikes and if he gets sneak attack ...

Initiative simplifies all that. Each creature makes one dexterity roll and you sort them in order. It does work. Really it does.

 

[Hriston]

So, you're asking them to roll initiative, except you're not calling it that? Initiative rolls are dexterity checks.

The problem is, if you only do it one-on-one, that there is no turn taking outside of combat so other players can describe concurrent actions and you then have the problem of deciding timings.

Wizard: While they are squaring up, I cast Hold Monster on the ogre.
Rogue: And I sneak round the back of the ogre and stab him.

Do you ask for dexterity rolls for the wizard vs the ogre, and for the wizard vs the fighter to see whether the spell takes effect before or after the ogre strikes and before or after the fighter strikes, and for the rogue separately against the ogre, the wizard and the fighter to decide when he strikes and if he gets sneak attack ...

Initiative simplifies all that. Each creature makes one dexterity roll and you sort them in order. It does work. Really it does.

Yes, that was my point. Initiative is a Dexterity check and there are stakes involved just like any other ability check. DMs that don't telegraph that combat is starting are not setting the stakes of the initiative roll.

 

[BoldItalic]

Yes, that was my point. Initiative is a Dexterity check and there are stakes involved just like any other ability check. DMs that don't telegraph that combat is starting are not setting the stakes of the initiative roll.

Ah. I think we agree.

Although in your examples, you seem to be waiting for the player to declare his first round action (I stab the ogre) before he knows the outcome of the dexterity check (= initiative roll). This is fun and "realistic" but it gets messy if there are other players involved who might be taking actions and/or reactions. This is what worries me, I think. It could get chaotic rather quickly.

In 5e, initiative order controls the order that creatures choose their actions, as well as the order they are resolved. I like it, because it gives each player a moment in the spotlight as they address the situation as it stands at that very moment.

I dimly remember that 2e worked differently, though. Everyone declared their actions at the start of the round, then initiative was rolled for that round and the results were applied, effectively simultaneously. Wizards, in particular, had to adopt different tactics to avoid wasting spells on monsters that they knew were already dead. It became a different game.

</nostalgia>

 

[Hriston]

Ah. I think we agree.

Although in your examples, you seem to be waiting for the player to declare his first round action (I stab the ogre) before he knows the outcome of the dexterity check (= initiative roll). This is fun and "realistic" but it gets messy if there are other players involved who might be taking actions and/or reactions. This is what worries me, I think. It could get chaotic rather quickly.

Sure, and I wasn't suggesting that the player be bound to the choice of action discussed as the possible outcome of a successful initiative check. Notice the DM says things like, "you can try," and, "you'll be able to," not, "you will have to." Also, the examples I gave were intentionally simplified to illustrate how telegraphing the beginning of combat is a necessary precursor to establishing stakes for the initiative roll. For an experienced player, this sort of conversation is largely superfluous as it is neatly summed up in the phrase "Roll initiative", but to a newer player the stakes of rolling initiative might not be so obvious.

In 5e, initiative order controls the order that creatures choose their actions, as well as the order they are resolved. I like it, because it gives each player a moment in the spotlight as they address the situation as it stands at that very moment.

Initiative order is only in effect inside of combat, however. The conversations in my examples all take place before initiative is rolled. It's clear that creatures can make choices about what they will do inside of combat before combat has actually started because otherwise combat would never begin. Combat only happens if a creature makes a decision to attack or take hostile action, and then follows through on that decision. That choice is necessarily made outside of combat.

I dimly remember that 2e worked differently, though. Everyone declared their actions at the start of the round, then initiative was rolled for that round and the results were applied, effectively simultaneously. Wizards, in particular, had to adopt different tactics to avoid wasting spells on monsters that they knew were already dead. It became a different game.

</nostalgia>

I'm pretty sure this is true of all pre-Wizards D&D. You also rolled initiative for entire sides, and it was rolled every round. You can still do something like this by using the speed-factor initiative variant in the DMG. My examples weren't meant to suggest such a thing, however, and were merely meant to represent a discussion of the stakes inherent in the initiative roll.