Aligning the players' and PCs' mental states (Forked from: Why the World Exists)

[FireLance]

I actually think the title of the thread is a bit misleading.

FireLance, it seems like what you're talking about it meta-gaming. Players with enough information and the presumed 4e agreement of balanced encounters might (a) not get into the theme of an adventure as the meta-gaming pulls them out of role-playing; (b) act as if their PCs are invulnerable and use less strategy and never retreat; and (c) get bored with predictability of the encounters/rewards.

Does that sum up what you're concerned about?

Metagaming is part of it, but not all of it. I guess I'm wondering whether there are certain game conventions that are interfering with a player's ability to identify with or immerse himself into the perspective of his character. As seems fairly obvious by now, not everyone thinks that getting into your character's head is a good idea. However, assuming you do, and assuming you also think that game conventions such as wish lists and balanced encounters are also good ideas, how do you minimize their interference with each other?

 

[Fenes]

It comes down to two radically different playing styles.

One person likes the game to be the beer and pretzels type. Sit back, roll dice, laugh a lot, etc.

Another person likes to be their character, though not neccisarily in an unhealthy escapist fashion. They love being fully immersed in what's happening, and when their character cries, they cry (though perhaps more on the inside then on the outside.)

I, personally, very strongly favor the latter. I like games such as Promethean, where you really feel your character. I'm not saying my way is better, but then again, neither is yours. It's just different.

And there are people who consider characters to be characters. They do not identify with them, but still immerse themselves in the game. Like most DMs, I'd veture to say - I doubt most DMs cry when their villains cry, or try to identify with the monsters they portray.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

And there are people who consider characters to be characters. They do not identify with them, but still immerse themselves in the game. Like most DMs, I'd veture to say - I doubt most DMs cry when their villains cry, or try to identify with the monsters they portray.

Well, I was aiming this far more at players then DMs, as I suspect the thread itself is ;p

 

[Fenes]

Well, I was aiming this far more at players then DMs, as I suspect the thread itself is ;p

It still shows that one can immerse yourself in a campaign without being one's character.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I'm strongly in favour of immersion. "You are the hero in a world of monsters and magic" defines D&D and other FRPGs for me. I'm in favour of players creating PCs they can wear comfortably; if the player is not a good actor then that means a PC with personality similar to their own.

Glad we don't play together then. I really find that kind of "immersion" gets in the way of what I enjoy about roleplaying games, and I really really don't want to play characters who are much like me. It's not about pretending I'm someone else, or getting away from my life in some kind of an escapist sense - that idea bores me to tears, I really don't care for escapism the way some people seem to enjoy it.

What I enjoy is creating a character, then seeing how they react in various situations throughout the course of the game. This can often surprise me - not in the sense that the character does something other than what I have them do, obviously, but in the sense that I can't predict everything that the character would naturally do until it happens.

Now, "immersion" really gets in the way of that, because when I experience something in the moment I can't properly observe it - and that observation is way more fun for me than experiencing it in some kind of vicarious imaginative sense. Likewise, playing a character who is similar to me isn't any fun either, because it doesn't take any imaginative or creative work to figure out what I'm like or what I'd do in a given situation.

It comes down to two radically different playing styles.

One person likes the game to be the beer and pretzels type. Sit back, roll dice, laugh a lot, etc.

Another person likes to be their character, though not neccisarily in an unhealthy escapist fashion. They love being fully immersed in what's happening, and when their character cries, they cry (though perhaps more on the inside then on the outside.)

Sorry, mate, but this binary division you have here is crap. Read what I posted above, and then tell me that I still fit into either of your overly-limited categories of either "beer 'n' pretzels" or "immersive" gaming. You're just not seeing that there's more diversity in gaming styles out there.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

It comes down to two radically different playing styles.

One person likes the game to be the beer and pretzels type. Sit back, roll dice, laugh a lot, etc.

Another person likes to be their character, though not neccisarily in an unhealthy escapist fashion. They love being fully immersed in what's happening, and when their character cries, they cry (though perhaps more on the inside then on the outside.)

Sorry PC, this is a gross miscaracterization of many games. Your model is not at all adequate, leaves out a ton of paystyles, and actually is highly condescending. I very much agree with mhacdebhandia on this. I am not at all a beer and pretzels kind of player (Though I do really enjoy both, my play is hardly what could be called beer and pretzels). I actually do a lot of PbP because it allows people to better RP their characters than tabletop. You can believe their character more if there isn't a player that is diametrically opposed to the character that they are playing sitting right in front of you.

This very much comes down to whether you want to try the method actor route to characterization or the author stance to characterization, or any of a dozen or more others. I would bet that method actor DMs are extremely rare. How do you get immersive with a character when you have to play more than one at a time? Do these people then default to beer and pretzels DMs in your model?

To address the OP, I try to bring just a little of the character's experience to my players by limiting what the players know about the world to what their characters know about the world. This is mostly impossible, but the closer you get, the closer the players get to feeling like their characters do.

I create a lot of custom monsters. 4e is great at this. The players never know what they are facing. I reskin a lot of monsters, so the players never quite know if what they are facing is what they think they are facing. This goes back to the advice in the BECMI and AD&D DMGs. The players shouldn't know what is behind the screen. It extends the wonder from the characters to the players.

The fear that the characters have can be extended to some extent to the players by having a TPK with your group. This sounds confrontational, and it is to some degree, but it works. Kill all the characters. Preferably before they become to invested in them. This sets up the world as uncaring, even if you pull the strings and really do care. I think that some of the most meaningful victories in my games have come as part of round two against the BBEG after the first PCs were all creamed. Not for every group, but it has been cool for mine.

I guess that what I am saying is that the info on the world should be a comodity that the characters and the players both earn at the same time, and that I prefer to balance the game slightly harder than what the 4e DMG says, and kill all the PCs every now and then. It actually leads to better games.

I like wish lists. It makes my job easier. I don't just hand them whatever they wish, but I can find a plausible reason for anything to exist within the general campaign plot. My players know that they will usually get what they want eventually, but it might take a while. I give it to them, but on my terms.

 

[Aran Thule]

Thinking about the issues raised in the thread above led me to wonder whether certain game conventions, e.g. wish lists and the presumption that the characters would be facing "balanced" encounters, serve to increase the difference between the player's mental state and that of the character's, whether this could cause the character's in-game actions to seem artificial and contrived, and if so, what can be done to counter it.

I think most players expect balanced encounters due to the nature of the game, after all you are all playing for fun and having no challenge or being crushed mercilessly is not entertaining for the players.
Saying that there are tricks that can be good to liven things up, as has been previously mentioned you can use custom monsters. Alternately you can drop something on the players they do not expect, for example in shackled city the lev 1 players meet a beholder.
Try not to stick to a pattern, there are fights the pc's cannot win and they should learn that retreat is an option, add the odd suprise and the game should be more fun for everyone.

Regarding wish lists... i think this really comes down to the DM, 4th Ed seems to expect characters to have a certain amount of equipment to keep them balances against their level and seems to have removed the random element of loot. So tbh if a player gives a wish list for his character over then it gives the DM something to work with. If there is something special they want then use it as a plot hook, have them research it.

As for player and character mental states, this is tricky to answer without putting people in a pigeon hole.
Everyone plays the game their own way, look at some of the signitures of people that have the storyteller 75%, power gamer 80% ect, you will note that they are not exclusive they just hint at the prefered style that that person plays.
Some people put a lot of time and effort into their characters and get their enjoyment from watching that character develop and react to their surroundings, others will see everything as a challenge to be won using whatever infomation they have and there are millions of other play styles.
The only thing i can suggest is that you play with people with compatable play styles otherwise it will spoil your enjoyment our that of the other players.