Alignment - Action As Intent

[Brentos]

Frostburn

It’s easy to imagine a Knight of the Iron Glacier who’s “gone native,” slaying everything he finds on patrol regardless of its alignment or intent.

Okay, I'm going outside of the SRD, but this is one piece of anecdotal evidence supporting that alignment and intent are separate.

 

[Fifth Element]

Okay, I'm going outside of the SRD, but this is one piece of anecdotal evidence supporting that alignment and intent are separate.

I think you'll need a lot more context than that bit of a quote to argue anything with it.

Also, note that while we are using the term "intent" in this discussion to mean something about interpreting alignment, WOTC does not use such a term in the rules AFAIK. Therefore their use of the word "intent" here is simply its general, everyday meaning. It's a big stretch to interpret it to mean the same thing we mean in this discussion.

 

[Brentos]

I agree...

I think you'll need a lot more context than that bit of a quote to argue anything with it.

Also, note that while we are using the term "intent" in this discussion to mean something about interpreting alignment, WOTC does not use such a term in the rules AFAIK. Therefore their use of the word "intent" here is simply its general, everyday meaning. It's a big stretch to interpret it to mean the same thing we mean in this discussion.

Hence, "anecdotal" not "definitive".

I didn't want to fall into copyright violation by posting more than that, so I provided the page number. What are the rules here for (c) material posting? (It's not SRD).

 

[Fifth Element]

For me, the vampire issue is part of the "magically forced alignment change." In effect, the vampirism *forces* you to see the world in a fundamentally new way: one that leads you to actions that attract Evil to you. In this way, the undead condition propigates something like a virus or infection: it causes you to seek out what would propigate it. A Good vampire wouldn't be that interested in killing and drinking the blood and draining the levels of many people, if any. An Evil one, however, would spread that around as much as it could, resulting in more vampirism in the world.

So if something external forces you to want to do evil things, you're evil, but if you think evil thoughts of your own volition, you're only evil if you act on them? That seems backwards to me.

 

[Fifth Element]

Hence, "anecdotal" not "definitive".

I didn't want to fall into copyright violation by posting more than that, so I provided the page number. What are the rules here for (c) material posting? (It's not SRD).

There are no definitive rules for what constitutes "fair use", but if you're concerned about it you could simply describe the context in your own words, enough so that we know what that quote is in reference to.

 

[Brentos]

Yes.

So if something external forces you to want to do evil things, you're evil, but if you think evil thoughts of your own volition, you're only evil if you act on them? That seems backwards to me.

Yes, as far as game-rules go. If your character gets the vampire template or a helm of opposite alignment and your character was [Good], then your character is now [Evil].

 

[Brentos]

Thanks!

There are no definitive rules for what constitutes "fair use", but if you're concerned about it you could simply describe the context in your own words, enough so that we know what that quote is in reference to.

Gotcha, I don't want to violate, so summary it is:

It is about prestige class choosing. The prestige class groups them into good guys/bad guys, Tied to Frostfell, Combat-Focused, and others.

This quote is from the good guys/bad guys section, so I'll quote that section:

Good Guys/Bad Guys: Members of these groups define themselves by their alignments and their outlooks on the world first, their other abilities second. Their strengths reflect their alignment choices, and roleplaying one or the other means putting attitude first. A good guy/bad guy designation doesn’t mean that every such character is a hero or villain in your campaign. It’s easy to imagine a Knight of the Iron Glacier who’s “gone native,” slaying
everything he finds on patrol regardless of its alignment or intent. Likewise, a winterhaunt of
Iborighu could be a useful ally when an evil fire god tries to set the Material Plane aflame.

Emphasis Mine.

It seems to me that it twice separates alignment from intent/outlook. Thoughts?

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes, as far as game-rules go. If your character gets the vampire template or a helm of opposite alignment and your character was [Good], then your character is now [Evil].

Now when you say [Evil], do you only mean "has the [Evil] descriptor", or do you mean "has an evil component to his alignment (LE, NE, CE)"?

If actions are the only thing that matters, you're going to need a qualifier. Actions are all that matters in determining alignment, unless something external has changed your alignment.

But even this is putting the cart before the horse. Alignment is not an end unto itself. It is a description of how a character thinks and behaves, in a general sense. Putting on a helm of opposite alignment changes your outlook on the world, and your alignment changes as a result. It doesn't make any sense otherwise.

And a passage from the description of the helm:

Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook.

The helm changes the person's outlook. It doesn't say the individual enjoys his new acts, because the acts flow from the outlook. Once again, you cannot separate action from intent.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

The RAW seems to be running into an issue of agency.

To run with KM's example, if my actions are being dictated by a fungus or by vampirism, why am *I* going to change in alignment? That is to say, my soul/mind/whatever construct the DM's universe uses for such things going to be permanently altered because the chemistry of my brain has been co-opted by another organism or force? How much wiggle room is there in there? At what point are my actions still my own, and at what point am I officially out of the driver's seat? And which of those situations CAN impact my alignment? If I'm sitting in the back corner of my body screaming while my body goes out and spreads some fungus..... am I evil? If I'm not evil (or at least my soul isn't), do I still detect as evil because of the fungus directing my body?

Oh, good... I'm running into the Mind-Body problem in D&D hypotheticals

 

[Fifth Element]

Good Guys/Bad Guys: Members of these groups define themselves by their alignments and their outlooks on the world first, their other abilities second. Their strengths reflect their alignment choices, and roleplaying one or the other means putting attitude first. A good guy/bad guy designation doesn’t mean that every such character is a hero or villain in your campaign. It’s easy to imagine a Knight of the Iron Glacier who’s “gone native,” slaying
everything he finds on patrol regardless of its alignment or intent. Likewise, a winterhaunt of
Iborighu could be a useful ally when an evil fire god tries to set the Material Plane aflame.

Emphasis mine. The very next sentence says that to play to an alignment choice, you need to put attitude first. Attitude is mental, not physical (in this sense of the word).