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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9385371" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Changing Shove and Grapple from a contest to a saving throw severely nerfed martial options, because that is their best basic built in control.&nbsp; This nerfs strength characters who would make use of this (and those are some of the best non-magic builds in play).&nbsp; It also nerfs Rogues.For example, playing a Rune Knight with Skill Expert and Tavern Brawler you could be pushing a +11 Athletics at 8th level (and +13 at 9th) on point buy and rolling with advantage while in Giants Might.&nbsp; For comparison an Adult Red Dragon has a +8.&nbsp; In one round with Giants Might and Action Surge you can shove him prone and grapple him very reliably, likely with one action (or half an action if Giants might is already active).&nbsp;&nbsp; From here out the Dragon is immobile and makes all attacks at disadvantage, probably for the entire fight since his chance of breaking out even if he wastes an action is very low.&nbsp; You can drag him around the battlefield and hold him in an allies AOE.Because this is a contest, the Dragon's legendary resistance is irrelevant.&nbsp; Under the new rules you have only a small chance of this succeeding since it is a save and because it is a save virtually no chance to succeed once you consider legendary resistance.Make it against something that is not large and you don't even need to go into Giant's Might and can do the grapple part as a bonus action with Tavern Brawler.This is an extreme example with an optimized build but this applies to all strength-based martials (and to a lessor extent Rogies).&nbsp; Changes to the grapple and shove rules are the biggest nerf, but there are others too - changes to action surge for example.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9385371, member: 7030563"] Changing Shove and Grapple from a contest to a saving throw severely nerfed martial options, because that is their best basic built in control. This nerfs strength characters who would make use of this (and those are some of the best non-magic builds in play). It also nerfs Rogues. For example, playing a Rune Knight with Skill Expert and Tavern Brawler you could be pushing a +11 Athletics at 8th level (and +13 at 9th) on point buy and rolling with advantage while in Giants Might. For comparison an Adult Red Dragon has a +8. In one round with Giants Might and Action Surge you can shove him prone and grapple him very reliably, likely with one action (or half an action if Giants might is already active). From here out the Dragon is immobile and makes all attacks at disadvantage, probably for the entire fight since his chance of breaking out even if he wastes an action is very low. You can drag him around the battlefield and hold him in an allies AOE. Because this is a contest, the Dragon's legendary resistance is irrelevant. Under the new rules you have only a small chance of this succeeding since it is a save and because it is a save virtually no chance to succeed once you consider legendary resistance. Make it against something that is not large and you don't even need to go into Giant's Might and can do the grapple part as a bonus action with Tavern Brawler. This is an extreme example with an optimized build but this applies to all strength-based martials (and to a lessor extent Rogies). Changes to the grapple and shove rules are the biggest nerf, but there are others too - changes to action surge for example. [/QUOTE]

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