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All Fours: the Rule of Fours? the Game of Fours?

(Though personally, for a trimmed down version, I think just one shield might be best).

This is probably true...I was thinking that, myself. Which is why I didn't include a list of "shields" in the weapons/armor post. Is Scale mail really better AC than Chainmail? I don't recall (and didn't look it up when I made my armor list). I was more looking for Chain to be second to Plate (for the beginners). What would go between Leather and Chain, then, to make our 4?

My preferred ability set would be: Prowess (Strength + Constitution), Agility, Intellect (Intelligence + Wisdom) and Presence (Charisma).

I definitely like "Presence" better than "Persona." That's definitely being done.

But I do very much like [MENTION=6675228]Hassassin[/MENTION] 's suggestion of breaking up Int. and Wis. so that each of the 4 base classes is linked to one of the 4 Abilities (as was always the case)...and I think a case can be made that Charisma and Wisdom are both very important for clerics/priests. So lumping them together does not bother me too much.

If you think of situations where the ability to "read people" could be used, as much as "sway" them, Wisdom seems to mesh with Charisma quite nicely.

And then, the player of the Cleric has "their own" Primary Ability, just as the other three instead of "sharing" Intellect with MUs. I think even little, probably unnoticed, individuality like this makes/helps players feel a PC is really "their own"/easier to get more "in the character." But maybe that's just me/I'm over-analyzing.

PS: I do like "Intellect" better than "Smarts" too...though I inclined to still have it relate to "street smarts" and important for Thieves and the accumulation of Skill points for any character/class.

--SD
 

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Late to the party but would still like to comment on the meta concept...

In the Marine Corps we have the Rule of 3 - things or groups of people that need to be managed but if you include that leader himself you get 4.

For instance (including leaders in examples):

A fire team (basic fighting element) is 4 - Fire team leader, Rifleman, Saw Gunner, and A- Gunner.

Then you go on to squads which is 3 fire teams and a squad leader, then platoons, 3 squads and a Platoon Sgt. Then companies and so on and so forth.

I think this gaming idea is an excellent way to break things down and organize them in an easily manageable format.

Perhaps I am biased and just reaching in my linking your original concept, but I don't care - lol.

I will be following this thread / to see how things pan out!
 

Ok, til those other topics continue...back to the Skills.

These are getting more difficult to weed through and break down into digestable 4-blocks...I'm starting to see why/how they have been kind of wonky in every edition.

Pressing on...

Beginner Skills for Clerics (3 slots at 1st level + Smarts/Intellect modifiers)

Devout Casting:
cost 1. The cleric has a steady and centered mind and will that allows them to invoke their spells regardless of things going on around them. Kind of a mini-trance. A cleric with this Skill is able to cast while moving their normal movement rate (though not while running/rushing). Clerics with Devout Casting are even able to complete their spell if attacked (as long as the cleric remains above 0 hp).

Field Healing: cost 2. The Cleric is knowledgeable in basic medical training/treatment. A cleric with this skill can do d4 worth of non-magical healing through skillful use of this knowledge (bandaging, splints, use of medicinal herbs/creation of salves, etc.). The Cleric must spend a minimum of 4 rounds working on the wounded individual. They may use this skill as many times per day as they like. A cleric with this skill may also instruct others in appropriate treatment to the effect that a non-cleric using the "Healing" General Skill is able to mend d2 hit points to their patient. Clerics with this skill also gain an additional d4 hp to any healing spell they cast.

Holy Striking: cost 2. The Cleric is a powerful wielder of their faith. Clerics with this skill gain a +1 to their to hit or damage roll (declared before the die is cast!). This Skill is usable 1/day per level of the Cleric. The effect of Holy Striking is a low-level channeling of the cleric's deity's divine power through their weapon and thus, if applied "to hit", will allow the cleric to strike creatures that can only be hit with "magic weapons". This bonus increases by +1/every other level gained by the Cleric: +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th, to a maximum of +4 at 7th level.

[Note: If using the "Alignment rules", the bonus is applied to damage is increased by 1 when striking a creature of opposing alignment: a good cleric v. evil creature or vice versa. A good cleric striking a neutral character would receive their normal bonus. A Good or "Ultimate Good" Extremist Cleric will receive
no bonus to hit or damage - the skill "won't work" - if striking someone of Good alignment. Neutral Clerics do not receive any added bonus, receiving their bonus against foes of any alignment.]

Stalwart Defending:
cost 3. The Cleric is a pillar of their faith. They are able to bolster and uplift those [allies] in their presence. A cleric with Stalwart Defending gains +1 to all saving throws (Will Defense checks) against mind-based attacks or effects (fear, confusion, illsuions, charms and enchantments- including the Sleep spell) and morale checks. This +1 applies to the saves of all allies within 20' of the Cleric. This bonus increases +1 for every other level gained by the Cleric (+2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th...) to a maximum of +4 at 7th.
 

I'm wondering if you could keep the 3e-type ability dependent skill list, but divide it into 4x4 skill areas.

Adventuring (acrobatics (A), athletics (S), perception (I), survival (I))
Interaction (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive) (P)
Knowledge (healing, magic, religion, streetwise) (I)
Thievery (disable device, open lock, pickpocket, stealth) (A)

I'm not completely satisfied with the division, but it seems like a possible starting point. Letters in parentheses refer to the key ability.

You could then for instance say that class skillsets are Cleric: AIK, Fighter: A, Mage: AK, Thief: AIT. Adapting the PF skill system of per level skill points and +3 to trained class skills would be simplest, I think.
 

Beginner Skills for Magic-users (4 to start + Smarts/Intellect modifiers)

Arcane Knowing: cost 1. The Magic-user with this Skill has some degree of knowledge and understanding on any variety of occult topics from magical creatures and legendary items of power to magical and mundane herbs, spell components (recognizing/identifying raw items that could be used for spell casting), alchemy, astrology, magical attributes of gemstones, secret sites of mystical power, races or persons of magical ability, etc... A topic may be as generic as "Magic Items" or "Magical Creatures" to something more detailed like "Magic Wands" or "Griffons" to as precise as "The Lost Wand of the Empress of X" or "Migratory Mating Patterns of the Copperwing Griffon." It is up to the Player's choice and imagination (subject to DM approval). Arcane Knowing may be taken up to 4 times in any particular topic.

This Skill requires and expects a degree of DM adjudication. The amount of information known to the MU for any possible Arcane topic is a matter of how many slots the MU has devoted to the topic: 1 being very general knowledge, 4 being the most/highest detail/an "expert" on the topic. An MU using this skill needs to roll their Intellect/Smarts Ability score + the number of Arcane Knowing slots they have for the topic or lower to recall any information. Failure might indicate they know nothing/can't remember anything of use or (at the DM's discretion) they recall something incorrectly or outright wrong/false.

Combat Casting:
cost 2. The MU has a particularly focused mind that allows them to cast spells while in combat or other chaotic scenes. The MU may cast while moving their normal movement rate, though not while running/rushing. Unlike the clerical Devout Casting Skill, an MU will still be disrupted if physically struck. An MU with Combat Casting does, however, gain a +1 bonus to saving throws against any mind-based attack or effect due to their heightened concentration. This bonus increases as the MU gains levels, +1 every other level to a maximum of +4 at 7th. Success indicates the MU may cast normally, and need not save again for the same effect, even though the attack/condition may be ongoing (an area effecting charm, being caught within a Darkness spell, a dragon's innate "fear" effect, etc...)

Mystic Sensing:
cost 1. By means of this Skill a MU is able to "sense" the general presence of arcane magical spells and effects. They may also notice a mystic energy "residue" from a past spell or effect up to 1 day per level of the MU.
Example: A 2nd level MU enters a room where two wizards fought in combat the day before. Scorch marks on the walls and floors and the remains of several goblins with no apparent cause of death cause the MU to invoke her Mystic Sensing. She is able to "feel" that a lot of focused magical energy (spells) had been present in the room about 24 hours before she arrived. [EDIT] Moving slowly through the room, it seems to her the dissipating energies are stronger around the doorway to the left than the doorway to the right. [/EDIT]
This Skill may be utilized once per day for every two levels of the caster: 2 times at 3rd level, 3 times at 5th to a maximum of 4 times per day at 7th level. This Skill does not supply exacting location as the Detect Magic spell, but a general sense/presence of mystical energies. In other words, a MU may play a sort of "Marco Polo"/"getting warmer, getting colder" with the sensation, but should not be able to ascertain specific items or effects. Simply that magic is/was present in a general area. Mystic Sensing provides this knowledge at a beginning radius of 10' from the MU and expands 10' every other level to a maximum of 40' distance from the MU at 7th. At 3rd level, this Skill will recognize the presence of Divine magic, also, and differentiate between the Arcane and Divine energies (Clerical spells and spell effects). They "feel" different to the MU.

Spell Whispering:
cost 2. An MU with the Spell Whispering Skill need not make their words heard across the field of battle. Spells may be uttered "under one's breath", surreptitiously, without notice by those around them. The spell must still be spoken, however. So a MU within a field of magical Silence would still be unable to cast.
 
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Late to the party but would still like to comment on the meta concept...

In the Marine Corps we have the Rule of 3 - things or groups of people that need to be managed but if you include that leader himself you get 4.

For instance (including leaders in examples):

A fire team (basic fighting element) is 4 - Fire team leader, Rifleman, Saw Gunner, and A- Gunner.

Then you go on to squads which is 3 fire teams and a squad leader, then platoons, 3 squads and a Platoon Sgt. Then companies and so on and so forth.

I think this gaming idea is an excellent way to break things down and organize them in an easily manageable format.

Perhaps I am biased and just reaching in my linking your original concept, but I don't care - lol.

I will be following this thread / to see how things pan out!

Many thanks, .5elf.

I don't think you're reaching at all. Thanks for following along and feel free to comment on anything you like (or don't like or think you'd like better if XYZ or whatever! hahaha).

And welcome to ENworld!
--SD
 


I like the core 4 theory, especially the classes & races. It makes even more sense to me if there are 4 abilities with each class primarily using one of the abilities, such as: Body for Fighters, Mind for Magic Users, Agility for Thieves, and Presence for Clerics.

Then, each of the 4 core races modifies abilities; perhaps: humans = no modifiers; dwarves = +1/2 Body for -1/2 Agility; elves = +1/2 Mind for -1/2 Presence; and halflings = +1/2 Agility for -1/2 Body.

This set-up makes more sense to me and feels more intuitive while keeping the D&D flavor.

For weapons, I would rather see types & sizes represented. For types: piercing, slashing, bludgeoning. Size determines the base damage: tiny (d4), small (d6), medium (d8) & large (d10). Then the type gives a +1/2 in some circumstances. Piercing is better against soft armor. Slashing is better against unarmored. Bludgeoning is better against hard armor (& skeletons!).

I like the simplification of armor & shields.

Magic is the big thing that needs simplification, though.

Also, keep the 4 core defenses of AC, Reflex, Will & Fortitude.
 

I'm wondering if you could keep the 3e-type ability dependent skill list, but divide it into 4x4 skill areas.

Adventuring (acrobatics (A), athletics (S), perception (I), survival (I))
Interaction (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive) (P)
Knowledge (healing, magic, religion, streetwise) (I)
Thievery (disable device, open lock, pickpocket, stealth) (A)

I'm not completely satisfied with the division, but it seems like a possible starting point. Letters in parentheses refer to the key ability.

You could then for instance say that class skillsets are Cleric: AIK, Fighter: A, Mage: AK, Thief: AIT. Adapting the PF skill system of per level skill points and +3 to trained class skills would be simplest, I think.

Thanks "Hass" (Do you mind if I call you Hass? :) )! This actually would work really nicely with something else I was toying around with for "General Skills" (able to be taken by any class)...Thanks for saving me a bit of work...and we will definitely be coming back to this a bit later.

Body. Mind. Heart. Soul.

Although very un-D&Dish, I think they're evocative terms.

They are evocative and I like that quartet myself. But, you're right, they're a bit too "un-D&D" for what I like/am trying to do.

To that point, however, before continuing on, I suppose we really need to hammer down the whole "Abilities" thing...and Ability generation...seeing as, ya know, it is the basic framework for the whole friggin' character and many other elements stem from them...

hmmm...Ok.

I think we're all pretty much on the page that this "system" of "All Fours" is going to have 4 Ability scores instead of 6. More details on that later.

But first, I need some help/input here...Method for Ability Score generation. (as this will determine how I outline the Abilities bonuses for play)

Which one do people like best?

Method 1. Roll 4d6. Drop the lowest. Player arranges as desired. Scores of 3-18 with bonuses from 15 and up. Most familiar for most player, I would think.

Method 2. Roll 4d6. Keep them all. Player arranges as desired. Scores from 4-24 with bonuses from...let's say, 20 and up.

Method 3: Roll 4d4. Keep them all. Player arranges as desired. Scores from 4 to 16 with bonuses from...12, I guess. 4-7 is considered "below average", 8-11 is average and 12-16 is "above average"/receives some game relevant bonus/es.

Of course, for those looking for that "random/old skool" feel, a DM/group is perfectly welcome to use the "roll dice, use in order" alternative for generating Ability scores.

OH! And I'm figuring/thinking of the basic d20 mechanic when it comes to resolution stuff...Take your relevant Ability score + any modifiers there might be and roll under.

I imagine that would have some baring on what method people think best. In the case of Method 2, with a maximum possible score of 24, I guess that would have to changed to rolling both d20 and a d4 together....actually....ya know what, forget about Method 2. haha.

Method 1 or 3, which do you guys like better.
 
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I like the core 4 theory, especially the classes & races. It makes even more sense to me if there are 4 abilities with each class primarily using one of the abilities, such as: Body for Fighters, Mind for Magic Users, Agility for Thieves, and Presence for Clerics.

Then, each of the 4 core races modifies abilities; perhaps: humans = no modifiers; dwarves = +1/2 Body for -1/2 Agility; elves = +1/2 Mind for -1/2 Presence; and halflings = +1/2 Agility for -1/2 Body.

This set-up makes more sense to me and feels more intuitive while keeping the D&D flavor.

For weapons, I would rather see types & sizes represented. For types: piercing, slashing, bludgeoning. Size determines the base damage: tiny (d4), small (d6), medium (d8) & large (d10). Then the type gives a +1/2 in some circumstances. Piercing is better against soft armor. Slashing is better against unarmored. Bludgeoning is better against hard armor (& skeletons!).

I like the simplification of armor & shields.

Magic is the big thing that needs simplification, though.

Also, keep the 4 core defenses of AC, Reflex, Will & Fortitude.

Thanks for the compliments and suggestions. A bunch of what you have here I agree/am going to go with. The 4 Defenses, the 4 Abilities...

If you could give me a 4th type of weapon damage you might even sell me on changing the weapons categories as they make a lot of sense for me. I prefer just assigning the basic damage...telling a beginner "You hit with your mace. Roll d8." vs. "You hit with your mace. That's d8 because it is medium-sized...and add another +1 because you're hitting a guy in plate mail with a bludgeoning weapon." I mean, is it true...yeah, I suppose it is...but why does that all need to be outlined/separated out into separate categories for X-Y-Z to play the game?

I think a list of weapons with a dN next to them for damage suffices.

Not sure if getting into the whole "weapon type v. armor" thing, though, is all that important or just complicates things more than necessary for beginning play...or for play at any level...

Maybe it could be put in, as an element to be introduced as "optional play" in the second tier/set?

What do other people think?

I will not, ever, play in a game where I have to start worrying about fractions. hahaha. Sorry...but just...no.

There will be racial modifiers...and other modifiers. They will be whole numbers...in the case of racial modifiers, if that gives an Elf or Dwarf or Halfling 1 point higher in their particular Ability score than any Human is capable of attaining, I'm all good with the flavor of that.

You are absolutely correct that Magic needs to be simpler...I'm thinkin' 'bout it. ;)

--SD
 

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