All on the Grid Fantasy RPG - suggestions?

[nnms]

So I've been talking with a friend of mine about playing a fantasy RPG/miniature game about fantasy exploration of dangerous locations without the pretense of story participation or characterization or backstory or character concept or anything like that. Basically a D&D game that never leaves the grid.

Why the grid? We like miniatures and tactical games. We're both miniature painters. I have fond memories of games like Milton Bradley's HeroQuest. We enjoy it. We like not having conflicts in what different people are imagining in "theatre of the mind" type play ("No! I was over by the door to the throneroom, not by the door to the servant quarters!").

We also have a lot of miniatures that we want to use. As well, the Reaper Bones Kickstarter will hopefully deliver soon and there will be even more to paint up. I also have a ton of dungeons tiles and a good selection of Paizo's flip maps and the like.

I've played 4E to death. I've run and played it more than any other game and I'm done with it, even if it would be a natural fit for a game like this. I've played it to the point where the issues I have with it are now more prominent to me than the enjoyment I get out of it-- try as I may, the things I don't like now outweigh the things I do.

My friend is getting attracted to Pathfinder. 3.0 is probably the game he's run and played the most. I've run Pathfinder and found it worked quite well, but I am unsure how excising the non-grid stuff will work. Also, the last time I ran PF, when we hit levels 6+, the magic classes started drastically outpacing the non-magic classes. Like badly. People talk about PF improving this over 3.x, but they didn't go too far enough

All on the grid doesn't mean all combat. Exploration of room to room, dealing with hazards, diplomacy with creatures (they'll still get a miniature, even if we don't fight them, of course).

I'm looking for suggestions in terms of both rules sets to start with and changes to make the rules if needed.

We're looking for:

1) A game that doesn't have to leave the grid, except to hand wave transitions from one board set up to another.
2) Doesn't integrate character "story" into the rules in any meaningful way.
3) Includes getting better equipment and increasing in power for overcoming challenges.
4) Where monster strength and skill check DCs do not just magically scale with the party level like in 4E, but still enough guidelines to help the level designer for the session.
5) Where the GM functions as a level designer and runs the NPCs/Monsters but does not in any way have to be interested in plot, characterization, telling a story, etc.,.
6) Where the rules actually work and the GM doesn't have to fix them with rulings.

 

[Herzog]

Well. My first thought was: D&D the board game.

 

[nnms]

Sorry! I should have added:

7) Still create your own characters and have access to the full advancement and character building options of an RPG

Neither the 2003 board game nor the more recent D&D board games offer that.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I vaguely recall some game mentioned on 3.5 Private Sanctuary/Know Direction a while back that I think was a permutation of PF that sounds almost exactly like what you are looking for. Can't recall the name of it though.

 

[nnms]

I sent the guys who make the podcast an email. Hopefully they'll know

 

[nnms]

I'm beginning to think I'm better off going outside the D&D box on this one. Maybe with something like Mini-Six, OpenD6, OpenQuest or some other fantasy RPG that will do everything I want. Goal System Delves might also work well, as it comes from the angle of being a miniature game first and then adding in RPG-ish elements.

If anyone wants to make the case for sticking with a version of D&D as the foundation, please feel free.

 

[nnms]

I heard back from 3.5PS/Know Direction and they don't remember talking about anything like this on their podcast, so no luck there.

I think I'm going to be better off looking outside of D&D anyway.

 

[Weather Report]

A cloth tape-measure can be much fun. and more realistic.

 

[GreyLord]

What you sound like you want is an RPB. A Roleplaying Boardgame. The most recent is Descent 2nd edition. You do not really have an option to create a character however, though you have options of which characters to choose. Very tactical, very gridlike. You do advance your characters, and gain skills as you progress along the campaign.

Many of the really good RPB's are out of print and could cost you a bundle.

The Original Descent (by FFG) had a download where you could create your own characters. It also had character advancement and all the RP stuff you seem to want in it's RPG campaigns such as Road to Legend. Be aware though, unlike an RPG...the GM really IS out to kill you...over and over and over again.

Warhammer Quest is considered by many the finest of all RPB's. It's basically a Warhammer RPG type game, but with levels and on a board. You have a character from a class which you advance in levels (as opposed to Descent or the next I'm going to mention which is more stat increased based). You gain XP, gold, equipment, shop, etc.

Advanced Heroquest is an advanced form of the boardgame Heroquest (imagine that). In AHQ you play a game which is extremely similar to WHQ (warhammer quest) which is no surprise as both are by the same company. There are differences, the out of dungeon portions are rougher, the dungeons are a little more random in some ways, and there are more restrictions on wealth carrying. In addition, characters advance by increasing their stats, not by advancing in level.

If you like the D&D 4e you can try the D&D boardgames such as Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon, and Legend of Drizzt. Heads up though, you don't really level (you can, but only one level, and it's at random), and it's more about a single dungeon crawl overall than the more indepth advancements you get with the games listed above.

If you don't care about level advancements and want single scenarios, another game set more in the modern times can also be fun such as Tannhauser which is very tactical, but not all that roleplaying oriented.

Games where you don't necessarily play fantasy, and don't necessarily advance in stats or level or in that regard at all could be games such as Doom the board game, Gears of War, or Mansions of Madness.


If you sometimes would like a game with Roleplaying aspects, but lighter, faster, and over in one night, but with leveling or gaining equipment, you can also consider these others.

My favorite is Runebound.

My wife's favorite is Talisman.

Others in that type of game would be Return of the Heroes, Prophecy, and the like.

One of the best which you don't really gain levels or stats, and only sometimes gain equipment, but is still considered one of the best types of these games is Arkham Horror.

Another is called Betrayal at House on the Hill.

Hopefully that gives you a list of games to look into and see if you would like them.

 

[nnms]

I've actually played all the games you mentioned and they're not really what I'm looking for. Though they are all awesome.

Basically I'm looking for an RPG that is a suitable choice to drift towards a miniature wargame or a board game and not a board game that's already incorporated some RPG elements.

When i say it doesn't leave the grid, that doesn't mean that there's zero dialogue or at the very least, a pretense of reason to actually go into a dungeon. There'd also be transition scenes from location to location and the like.

Basically how AD&D1E was played when you use the full miniature rules. But I'm beginning to see the weakness in D&D for actually handling play like this (the earlier versions have divergent resolution mechanics that need to be cobbled together by the DM with rulings and the later ones make all sorts of system mastery assumptions I'm not interested in).

So it looks like I'm going to find some sort of RPG or another and make it work on the grid. While Pathfinder and 4E are good fits for an approach like this, neither of them work for me, so I'll have to look elsewhere.

I'm going to spend a bit of time thinking about exactly what I need to resolve to make this work and then ask for suggestions in the non-D&D specific gaming forum.