All this talk of monks... Monk's Tattoo (MoF)

[Corwin]

So what is it about the Monk's Tattoo that makes it worth 80,000 gp?

For those unfamiliar, it adds 4 levels to a monk for the purposes of unarmed damage, AC bonus and movement only. Basically if slides you up the chart by four levels earlier than you would normally get them. No other benefits are gained (BAB, UAB, saves, etc.). It is permenant once applied. It is slotless. That's it.

Basically, it provides: +1 damage*, +1 AC**, +10 movement***.

*For monks of 1st to 11th level. At 12th to 15th level this bonus becomes +3. And 16th level and above, the monk gets nothing.

**At 20th level, the monk no longer gets any benefit from the tattoo here.

***Give or take. Some levels this is actually +20, but basically you are going up +10 at a time 4 levels faster than normal. Until 18th level, then nothing is gained at all.

In theory, the tattoo is worth double base because it is 'slotless', but it's also not removable. So you can not trade it, sell it or give it to someone else.

80k seems way too high for what it does.

I don't get it.

 

[Corwin]

For the first time in internet history, I'm going to de-rail my own thread before it even gets started and take it [OT]...

So, it appears that over 2 dozen people have seen this thread and no one has replied. Why is that? Is it a lack of knowledge regarding MoF or the item in question? Lack of desire to comment? Lack of anything worth saying?

It just seems odd that so many people bother to look and no one had anything to say. It's not like the title is misleading, or something like that, is it?

Anyhoo, I'm genuinely curious why this is.

 

[Cor Azer]

It just seems odd that so many people bother to look and no one had anything to say. It's not like the title is misleading, or something like that, is it?

Anyhoo, I'm genuinely curious why this is.

Well, there are a lot of lurkers on the boards, so that accounts for a lot of it.

In my case though, while familiar with the item in question, I'm not very good at pricing non-standard magic item abilities (Using spell X Y/times per day I can figure out, but I'm not sure how to go about the granting of four "partial virtual levels", particularly since the monk doesn't benefit uniformly from them - ie. the benefit to the monk depends on his level).

 

[Little_Buddha]

I was just interested in the title, but couldn't really find anything to comment on. It's really hard to price something like that and 80K sounds absolutely right at first ("for 80K I'll give you +4 to your level for most of your combat abilities"). Then when you break it down, the change isn't that great... I don't think I could price it, myself, even using the information you've given - the bonuses are all un-named and change wildly at certain levels (only +1/+3, really).

And what's the price on a +10' speed increase? It certainly isn't the ridiculously low price of the infamous Boots of Springing and Striding! But then again, if you price a 10' increase more realistically (and hence much higher than the x2 increase granted by the underpriced item) then you merely emphasise how good the boots are... But if you underprice the 10' increase (to match the boots) then you propagate the unbalanced cheapness of movement enhancers...

It's a tough item to price, basically. I think most people would agree that 80K for +3 damage, +1 AC and +10' would be a little on the high side - but what method of pricing would replace it?

 

[Corwin]

Fair 'nough.

I'm wondering if 40,000 was decided and then they doubled that for slotless? I would think not being able to ever remove it aught to offset that by a bit.

Personally, I would probably have had the two factors wash. Leaving it at around 40,000 gp. That seems about fair for what this thing does.

Anyone else?

 

[CRGreathouse]

The DMG specifically discusses magic tatoos (no stats, just DM possibilities) and suggests that they're worth more than x2, I believe. I'll give a page # if I find it.

 

[Wolfspider]

I would think not being able to ever remove it aught to offset that by a bit.

Why is this a horrible disadvantage? I see it as a remarkable advantage, myself. Why would the monk ever want to get rid of such a tattoo?

Upon a moment's reflection, I can see that a monk might outgrow the item, and it would be just taking up 80,000 gp worth of magic items without doing squat. But couldn't the tattoo be dispelled or disjoined? If so, then not being able to get rid of it just by going down to the tattoo parlor would not be a severe enough disadvantage to warrant such a reduction in price.

 

[Telor]

Selling or not shouldn't matter

I don't believe the inability to sell a magic item balances against the fact that it can NEVER be taken from you. It can be supressed for a time (dispel magic / antimagic area).

In addition, the tattooed item does not take a slot which is an additional, wonderful quality. This quality really depends on your campaign... Greyhawkish campaigns have very few PCs with every slot filled and therefore doesn't mean much. Later in my FR campaign, I'm sure my PCs would love to place a currently worn item into a tattoo to make room to wear something else.

-Telor

 

[Corwin]

Re: Selling or not shouldn't matter

Later in my FR campaign, I'm sure my PCs would love to place a currently worn item into a tattoo to make room to wear something else.

There are no "tattoo rules", AFAIK. Not officially, anyway. Unless you go to OA for the tattooed monk (different rules than the MoF tattoo) or the PsiHB (way different concept). The Monk's Tattoo is unique in its powers and application. It's not like there is a Monk's Necklace that offers the same benefits but requires a slot. So saying that you can take any item and put it into a tattoo isn't a real argument. I suppose you could in your game, but for the purposes of this discussion, I don't believe a house rule like that helps here. IMO, of course.

Never being able to remove an item does have some benefit. Sure, you can't have it stolen and you can't sell it. But you can never lend it to a friend who needs it either (unlike a sword or necklace). Sure, it's slotless. But it also eventually becomes worthless (other than it looks cool, of course ). These are some of the reasons why I'd be inclined to adjust the cost down somewhat.

 

[Glod Glodson]

Let's try to break it down, we'll look at the most favorable range both because it's when your most likely to afford it and it's at 'peak performance'

Now since these are boosts to existing enhancements, how about if we count it as addtions to the monks abilities? (as if adding to a magical item:Monk) I'm not saying this is the only or even the best way to do it but it does make a certain amount of sense.

Damage:
Your damage goes from d12 to d20 changing your average from 6.5 to 10.5, for a damage bonus of +4.
There is an enchantment that costs +1 and gives a +2 to damage, I'll use that as a mark. This is two of those stacked for +4 damage, for a 'weapon enhancement cost' of +2

Speed:
This one is tougher since I can't think of an equivelent. Your speed goes up by +10. How 'bout we make it simple and call it 1,000 gp. Doubled for slotless to 2,000gp

AC:
And additional +1 The class already gives +2, Increasing a +2 slotless ac bonus to a +3 slotless ac bonus would normally cost...er...9,000gp (+3) - 1,000gp(exisiting bonus) = 8,000gp gp
Doubled for slotless = 16,000 gp.

Weapon cost is tougher. At 10th level the monk started striking as a +1 weapon, so we'll use that as a base. We'll assume they are counting a monks fists as a +1 weapon they are adding to. So adding +2 weapon equivelent to it would bring it to a +3 weapon giving a cost of 18,000gp (+3) - 2,000gp (exising +1) =16,000 gp. Doubled for slotless = 32,000 gp. Doubled for both hands = 64,000 gp.

Total cost: 64,000 gp + 16,000gp + 2,000 gp = 82,000 gp. Pretty close to 80,000 gp. So if you look at it as improving something that already exists it works out almost perfectly


Of course if you look at it as adding something out of the blue, you'd get er...2,000 gp + 2,000gp + 32,000 gp = 36,000gp or about half of the other calculation.


I'll admit that I think going from d12's to d20's is fairly powerful, If I wanted to do it with a weapon in each hand, it would cost a similar amount. Compared to that, the other things are just minor add-ons'


Glod