Allegory VS Interpretation

My personal philosophy of media interpretation is as follows:



Yeah. See above. The act of creation does not, in and of iself, entitle you to someone else's financial risk and/or investment to distribute the thing.



"The twitter mob," as you put it, is the public you were hoping would consume your content! They are your customers! You figure a producer does not have responsibilities to their customers? "I want your money and adulation, but no backtalk, you hear me!" is not a viable position.

In the US, you live with nearly 330 million other human beings. You don't get to reap the benefits of that, but not have responsibilities with respect to the others around you.

You make a good point. People talk about this as if it were new but it's not. Corporate produced media has ALWAYS stifled its creativity in an effort to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The specifics may have changed, but at its heart it's the same as it ever was.
 

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BookTenTiger

He / Him
Or should we, maybe, just let the past archives of art remain as it is, and instead create the art we want to see? And encourage everyone to create, more and more art, so that your culture becomes infused with different and diverse visions and expressions? So that we and others can self-define and align with those forms that we find meaningful, as well as recognize that which is not to our taste or that we find abhorrent?

...

Here's another example: the Washington Redskins. I've actually been supportive of a name change for years, as I think the name is clearly racist. But I wouldn't white-out the history books with whatever the new name becomes.

Well, first we can have a little compassion for the author. She was a very young, 20-something author on the verge of book publication when she was accused of all sorts of nasty things before her book was even published, to the point that she asked the publisher to hold off. Being accused of racism et al is no small matter, especially publicly.

Now the book ended up being published, and in the long run it might even have helped sales and made her a kind of martyr, but still...not something I'd want to go through. Where's the outrage for her accusers? Where's the compassion for her?

I am a firm believer than we should preserve all art, even offensive art... But publishers are not museums, and it is not their responsibility. If you firmly believe that the old Oriental Adventures (to pull out a well-trod example) should be preserved... buy it and preserve it! But it is not a publisher's responsibility to continue to publish or sell materials that can now be identified as problematic. And if the authors of that material disagree... they can find other publishers, self-publish, or sue! We have literal systems in place to protect free speech, but the free market is not one of them.

The case with Zhao is sad and troubling. However, I would argue that looking at it in the context of a cultural shift is important. These conversations around representation in publishing, especially in YA literature, are relatively new. And in this case, the publishers got it wrong. On the other hand, the author still got published and we are still talking about the conversation around her work, which means publishers and critics can do better in the future. If you examine the case as a single, isolated event it's frustrating and sad. Seen in the larger context of a cultural shift in YA literature, it's still frustrating and sad, but it's part of the longer process of bringing representation and diversity to a traditionally monocultural institution.

I guess what I'm arguing here is that context matters!
 

Ryujin

Legend
Except that, in the specific instance cited (OA), they can't find another publisher or self publish, because the work is tied to other intellectual property and was produced under license. The only option would be to sue, as is the case in the Dragonlance case that I posted about earlier in the thread.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I am a firm believer than we should preserve all art, even offensive art... But publishers are not museums, and it is not their responsibility. If you firmly believe that the old Oriental Adventures (to pull out a well-trod example) should be preserved... buy it and preserve it! But it is not a publisher's responsibility to continue to publish or sell materials that can now be identified as problematic. And if the authors of that material disagree... they can find other publishers, self-publish, or sue! We have literal systems in place to protect free speech, but the free market is not one of them.

The case with Zhao is sad and troubling. However, I would argue that looking at it in the context of a cultural shift is important. These conversations around representation in publishing, especially in YA literature, are relatively new. And in this case, the publishers got it wrong. On the other hand, the author still got published and we are still talking about the conversation around her work, which means publishers and critics can do better in the future. If you examine the case as a single, isolated event it's frustrating and sad. Seen in the larger context of a cultural shift in YA literature, it's still frustrating and sad, but it's part of the longer process of bringing representation and diversity to a traditionally monocultural institution.

I guess what I'm arguing here is that context matters!
Yes, of course context matters. But there are a couple points of divergence in your post for me. The phrases "identified as problematic" and "got it wrong" imply some kind of universally agreed upon and static ideology that we all should aspire to agree upon. Who identified something as problematic, and to what degree is it problematic? Why is it "problematic" vs. outdated? And "wrong" with regards to what standard? (btw, it wasn't the publisher that halted publication - but Zhao herself, because of blogger backlash).

It is not as if we have come to some final, perfect ideology, and anyone who questions or disagrees with it "just doesn't get it." That speaks of a kind of ideological fundamentalism and stasis, which is quite prevalent among those who find all manner of things to take offense to, and desire to change everything to fit their ideology (in my opinion). It also leads to a polarizing climate in which you either get it or you don't, and if you don't get it (or, actually, simply just disagree), you're part of the problem, you're not "one of us" - the us that gets the true way that things should be. I'm not saying that you personally foster this attitude, but that I see it quite frequently with regards to these related topics.

Everything is written and published in a context. Art arises from the moment in which it is created. We cannot erase the past, and changing it denies us an understanding of where we came from. There's an edition of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn that came out about a decade ago that replaced the "n-word" with "slave." With Huck Finn, one of the classics of American literature, we have three options:

1) Ban it
2) Revise it to fit modern sensibilities
3) Leave it as is, unaltered, with the option of a foreword that discusses cultural context.

I would strongly advocate for 3, both with Twain and Oriental Adventures. New publications are a different matter, and thus are more relevant to possible future treatments of Asian themed D&D products (Thankfully WotC took this approach with OA, so far at least, with their relatively mild disclaimer on the product page. I don't have an issue with that, although I know that some do; some feel like it didn't go far enough and the book should be unavailable, while others feel that it taints the protean purity of early D&D...I personally disagree with both extremes).

But what of novels written today that are set in the antebellum South in which the n-word was a common slur? Should we pressure writers to avoid using realistic language, even at the expense of the art? Do we try to protect any and all who might be offended, even if the offense is hidden between covers that such a person doesn't have to open? And even when the offense is based upon a misapprehension or over-identification with the material and the author's intention?

My guess is that the vast majority of people will agree on some basic, underlying goals around inclusivity, anti-bigotry, diminishing racism and hate, etc. But there's a lot of discussion to be had about the best approach to take. I don't think it has to be at the expense of creative freedom, or the accessibility of historical material. We don't have to get rid of or alter the past (as if we could!), nor do we have to limit what people want to create. Those are symptomatic approaches that, I think, in the end actually exacerbate the problems they're trying to solve.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yes, of course context matters. But there are a couple points of divergence in your post for me. The phrases "identified as problematic" and "got it wrong" imply some kind of universally agreed upon and static ideology that we all should aspire to agree upon. Who identified something as problematic, and to what degree is it problematic? Why is it "problematic" vs. outdated? And "wrong" with regards to what standard? (btw, it wasn't the publisher that halted publication - but Zhao herself, because of blogger backlash).

It is not as if we have come to some final, perfect ideology, and anyone who questions or disagrees with it "just doesn't get it." That speaks of a kind of ideological fundamentalism and stasis, which is quite prevalent among those who find all manner of things to take offense to, and desire to change everything to fit their ideology (in my opinion). It also leads to a polarizing climate in which you either get it or you don't, and if you don't get it (or, actually, simply just disagree), you're part of the problem, you're not "one of us" - the us that gets the true way that things should be. I'm not saying that you personally foster this attitude, but that I see it quite frequently with regards to these related topics.

Everything is written and published in a context. Art arises from the moment in which it is created. We cannot erase the past, and changing it denies us an understanding of where we came from. There's an edition of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn that came out about a decade ago that replaced the "n-word" with "slave." With Huck Finn, one of the classics of American literature, we have three options:

1) Ban it
2) Revise it to fit modern sensibilities
3) Leave it as is, unaltered, with the option of a foreword that discusses cultural context.

I would strongly advocate for 3, both with Twain and Oriental Adventures. New publications are a different matter, and thus are more relevant to possible future treatments of Asian themed D&D products (Thankfully WotC took this approach with OA, so far at least, with their relatively mild disclaimer on the product page. I don't have an issue with that, although I know that some do; some feel like it didn't go far enough and the book should be unavailable, while others feel that it taints the protean purity of early D&D...I personally disagree with both extremes).

But what of novels written today that are set in the antebellum South in which the n-word was a common slur? Should we pressure writers to avoid using realistic language, even at the expense of the art? Do we try to protect any and all who might be offended, even if the offense is hidden between covers that such a person doesn't have to open? And even when the offense is based upon a misapprehension or over-identification with the material and the author's intention?

My guess is that the vast majority of people will agree on some basic, underlying goals around inclusivity, anti-bigotry, diminishing racism and hate, etc. But there's a lot of discussion to be had about the best approach to take. I don't think it has to be at the expense of creative freedom, or the accessibility of historical material. We don't have to get rid of or alter the past (as if we could!), nor do we have to limit what people want to create. Those are symptomatic approaches that, I think, in the end actually exacerbate the problems they're trying to solve.

I think context matters.

If your novel is set in earlier times using language appropriate to that time is fine.

If the book is a thinly veiled wishful thinking on the authors part though that's a problem.
 

I am a firm believer than we should preserve all art, even offensive art... But publishers are not museums, and it is not their responsibility. If you firmly believe that the old Oriental Adventures (to pull out a well-trod example) should be preserved... buy it and preserve it! But it is not a publisher's responsibility to continue to publish or sell materials that can now be identified as problematic.

If they have a copyright on the thing that they're not publishing, then they're not just not publishing it, they're suppressing it. And while I feel that you're right that they don't have a duty to publish it, I also feel that they have an overriding moral abligation not to suppress it. If they're not going to publish it anymore then they should release it into the public domain.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
If they have a copyright on the thing that they're not publishing, then they're not just not publishing it, they're suppressing it.

A lot of stuff doesn't get reprinted anyway. They're not going to reprint OA anyway or anything else from 1E outside maybe the core rules and longshot special boxed sets things like that.
 

A lot of stuff doesn't get reprinted anyway. They're not going to reprint OA anyway or anything else from 1E outside maybe the core rules and longshot special boxed sets things like that.

To be honest, I believe there's a moral obligation to release that kind of stuff into the public domain as well. In fact, I feel that the law ought to be changed to make availability for sale a requirement for retention of a copyright
 

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