D&D 5E Allow the Long Rest Recharge to Honor Skilled Play or Disallow it to Ensure a Memorable Story

[el-remmen]

Unclear why you think this suddenly isn't a thread about D&D. Its still a thread about D&D. Since the feels like and the actually being was the essence of my point, I brought the contrast in to compare how the feels like and the actually being changes when system changes (even when the paradigm of play or the genre, or both, persists). Just like if you're talking about the driving experience of one car, you're invariably going to contrast it with another car.

I guess those comparisons just don't do much for me not having played the game or read their rules or know anything about them aside from an occasional reference on these boards. My point was that I would not necessarily expect the same feel or experience from a different game, even in the same basic genre.

 

[Manbearcat]

I guess those comparisons just don't do much for me not having played the game or read their rules or know anything about them aside from an occasional reference on these boards. My point was that I would not necessarily expect the same feel or experience from a different game, even in the same basic genre.

I agree! That was also my point!

But if we want to draw it back to straight D&D (albeit, unorthodox, basically "indie D&D"), the way 4e handled reinforcements is similar to the PBtA way:

1) Skill Challenge to get to the BBEG or to establish the ability to take a Long Rest (what-have-you).

2) Skill Challenge failure and the BBEG has their Encounter Budget bumped up (perhaps from EL +5 to EL +7).

Very different feels like and actually being from a game like AD&D, 3.x, and 5e when it comes to the generation of BBEG reinforcements.

 

[el-remmen]

the way 4e handled reinforcements is similar to the PBtA way:

You are talking to someone who only ever played 4E once as a playtest and dismissed it, and who had to just now google what "PBtA" is. I am also someone who never bothers trying to figure Encounter Level or even looks to closely at CR and just figures all that out by feel and what makes sense for the scenario - so a more "gamey" or "rulesy" approach to encounter design is not really how my head works (even my earlier suggestions about Medium or Hard encounters required I go and look up those terms because I never bother with them for my own needs). So maybe we're just talking past each other and it doesn't matter. The scenario/potential problem in the OP is not one that ever comes up in my games, so I should just bow out in suggesting solutions/approaches.

 

[Manbearcat]

You are talking to someone who only ever played 4E once as a playtest and dismissed it, and who had to just now google what "PBtA" is. I am also someone who never bothers trying to figure Encounter Level or even looks to closely at CR and just figures all that out by feel and what makes sense for the scenario - so a more "gamey" or "rulesy" approach to encounter design is not really how my head works (even my earlier suggestions about Medium or Hard encounters required I go and look up those terms because I never bother with them for my own needs). So maybe we're just talking past each other and it doesn't matter. The scenario/potential problem in the OP is not one that ever comes up in my games, so I should just bow out in suggesting solutions/approaches.

Nah you're good. No need to "bow out."

Also, just for clarity, the OP wasn't looking for solutions to resolve the collision of the two things juxtaposed. I was just looking for how folks (specifically 5e GMs) felt about that GM decision-point as it pertains to 5e's ethos and GMing responsibilities.

 

[Imaro]

I don't pre-plan adventures, so no percentages can be quantified.

So you improvise...

Doesn't improvising and pulling out some kind of new threat out of thin air invalidates the planning? In my book, it does. Oh, yeah, we killed the bad guy... But now there's a new bad guy and the only reason he's there is because we disposed of the old one too fast! Oh, yeah, our perfect plan worked flawlessly!

Your style is to improvise, as long as you aren't changing the situation they are prepared for I don't see how this could logically follow... If my PC's are prepared and defeat Strahd... does that mean while they are resting up afterwards the Dark Powers can't send them to another part of Ravenloft where they have to face some other threat? Does that mean if I roll a threat on the random encounter table... it shouldn't happen. If it's not changing the encounter the PC's have prepared for no, it's not invalidating what their planning it's continuing the campaign

Isn't it like 10x times better to let them pull out a new villain out of thin air instead?

And I'm not telling them "no" because "reasons". I'm telling them "no, give me a reason why".

I don't think it's "better" either way. I didn't say you created the reason but it boils down to the same thing... you decided no.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The Indiana Jones scene is obviously iconic and classic and brilliant in every way.

Now imagine it was the end of the movie. Indy shoots the Nazi leader and roll credits.

It’s just different.

I think at this point the GM would have to improvise or explain to the players that they didn't expect their plan and they may need sometime to come up with something if/when it is implemented.

“Have to” according to who? That may be your preference, but it certainly isn’t the only way to play.

Look at Matt Colville. He’s got tons of fans and people who watch him. He’s a very popular voice in the community. And he totally advocates for the “curated experience”.

Is he wrong? Or is it just that you disagree?

*************

Given how many seem to be on the Skilled Play side, I’m curious exactly how they achieve skilled play in 5E. We’ve touched on it here, but I think it’s a much harder thing to do than it was in early editions of the game.

Do you guys set everything ahead of time and then see how it goes? Do you never adjust anything? Do you track mundane resources and encumbrance?

What other tools are there to promote skilled play?

 

[Imaro]

“Have to” according to who? That may be your preference, but it certainly isn’t the only way to play.

The entire premise of the thread is based around opinion... do I really need to state it every time I say something...

 

[loverdrive]

I don't think it's "better" either way. I didn't say you created the reason but it boils down to the same thing... you decided no.

Do I even have a voice in such decision, if we have 3 to 5 to 7 sessions left to play? No, I don't. The fact that this plan isn't going to work, or even if does, there's going to be something else to deal with (for no other reason than the old villain being disposed of too quickly) is just obvious.

What I suggest it to let the players decide what will happen after they execute their perfect plan. They tell me that Dark Powers teleport them somewhere else to solve something else? Awesome! They tell me that Strahd is actually immortal and can't be killed? Awesome, too!

 

[Ovinomancer]

The Indiana Jones scene is obviously iconic and classic and brilliant in every way.

Now imagine it was the end of the movie. Indy shoots the Nazi leader and roll credits.

It’s just different.




“Have to” according to who? That may be your preference, but it certainly isn’t the only way to play.

Look at Matt Colville. He’s got tons of fans and people who watch him. He’s a very popular voice in the community. And he totally advocates for the “curated experience”.

Is he wrong? Or is it just that you disagree?

*************

Given how many seem to be on the Skilled Play side, I’m curious exactly how they achieve skilled play in 5E. We’ve touched on it here, but I think it’s a much harder thing to do than it was in early editions of the game.

Do you guys set everything ahead of time and then see how it goes? Do you never adjust anything? Do you track mundane resources and encumbrance?

What other tools are there to promote skilled play?

Having caught up on this thread, I'd say there's a distinct issue with the understanding of Skilled Play in a lot of the responses. Skilled Play is when the scenario is pre-designed and play is leveraging the rules of the game to navigate the scenario to best effect. Usually additional fiction is generated via random means with clear triggers -- eg, if we spend too much time or make too much noise it will trigger a wandering monster check. In other words, the players leverage the game against the situation.

As you note, this is challenging for 5e as opposed to B/X. B/X has very clear rules for how long things take, integrated risk/reward structures, and is premised on players navigating the orepped dungeon. 5e lacks all of these, leaving it up to the GM. So, unless the GM is codifying rulings and making things more player facing (which you absolutely can do, from experience), it's hard to do Skilled Play well with 5e. You have to make some clear effort to do so.

5e is very much presented with GM curation of play as the expected mode.

I voted Story in the poll because that's how 5e works at my table. For Skilled Play, we scratch that itch with Gloomhaven.

 

[Ovinomancer]

And, having said the above, a stand-out example of using 5e is a Skilled Play mode is how @iserith has described his online pick-up games. He uses a clearly stated, player facing adjudication method; has clear, leverageable table rules (eg, his Inspiration rules); and he sticks with location-based, heavy prep scenarios. It's a great example of how you can do Skilled Play in 5e.