D&D 5E Allow the Long Rest Recharge to Honor Skilled Play or Disallow it to Ensure a Memorable Story

[prabe]

That’s a weird way to phrase that, no? Isn’t the story “the heroes seek to destroy the vampire Strahd”? The how of it is up them of course, but I don’t think that changes their ultimate goal.

If the story is "The heroes seek to destroy Strahd," a curbstomp seems like that.

 

[tetrasodium]

I asked it earlier and no one really responded, so i’ll repeat it and see what you say Fenris; what does skilled play mean in 5E?

I think some comments have touched on it, but I don’t know if we’re really established what it means. @Manbearcat describes one instance of it in the OP if a party being able to time a long rest prior to a major confrontation.

So that’s one example, but what are others? I feel like “skilled play” as it’s typically classified has more to do with B/X or maybe 1E D&D, and is primarily about loadouts for gear and spell choice and the like. And of course puzzle solving.

What are some skilled play examples in 5E in your opinion?

I think @Fenris-77 did a nice job of explaining what it is in post 309, Part of what makes it difficult to define well for 5e is that the system itself is designed to fight it. Take this blurb from gygax in the 1e phb

Spoiler: skilled players

“Skilled players always make a point of knowing what they are doing, i.e. they have an objective. They co-operate – particularly at lower-levels or at higher ones when they must face some particularly stiff challenge – in order to gain their ends. Superior players will not fight everything they meet, for they realise that wit is as good a weapon as the sword or the spell. When weakened by wounds, or nearly out of spells and vital equipment, a clever party will seek to leave the dungeons in order to rearm themselves. (He who runs away lives to fight another day.) When faced with a difficult situation, skilled players will not attempt endless variations on the same theme; when they find the method of problem solving fails to work, they begin to devise other solutions. Finally, good players will refrain from pointless arguments and needless harassment of the Dungeon Master when such bog the play of the game down into useless talking. Mistakes are possible, but they are better righted through reason and logic, usually at the finish of play for the day.”

cooperation, teamwork, communication, having goals. All of those things are important to skilled play & there is probably no argument that those things should result in better results than a party blindly soloing near each other like a bunch of mute uncoordinated roombas with pointy things. For that to apply though it requires there to be tangible quantifiable results for doing more than "focus fire y0" & downsides for not attempting it on some level. Without those things it's closer to a kabuki theater farce than the sort of competence porn it used to be capable of demonstrating in past editions

 

[Ovinomancer]

I asked it earlier and no one really responded, so i’ll repeat it and see what you say Fenris; what does skilled play mean in 5E?

I think some comments have touched on it, but I don’t know if we’re really established what it means. @Manbearcat describes one instance of it in the OP if a party being able to time a long rest prior to a major confrontation.

So that’s one example, but what are others? I feel like “skilled play” as it’s typically classified has more to do with B/X or maybe 1E D&D, and is primarily about loadouts for gear and spell choice and the like. And of course puzzle solving.

What are some skilled play examples in 5E in your opinion?

I've been dancing around it because I fear it'll open a different can of worms, but, yes, 5e is a bit loose. I think it can support skilled play just fine, though, so long as we aren't defining skilled play as the tightly integrated systems of B/X and are willing to accept a less tight system for skilled play. Much of 5e is GM decides, but then so was B/X, especially for things the PCs tried outside of combat. I think 5e needs some drifting to really shine in skilled play -- things like putting out clear expectations for how/when the resolution system will be used (especially in the social/exploration pillars). I find explicitly stated DC prior to asking for a roll so the players can evaluate the risk/reward space more clearly helps. Maybe some house rules for other things. But, largely, I do think 5e can support skilled play. Again, it won't be as tight as B/X.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's a loaded question there boyo! The more mechanics in play the less often skilled play is a useful descriptor (please, feel free, general reading populace, to ignore the loading of the word skill there, thanks). There's a scale in play here that takes some breaking down, and the results don't describe one gaming table, just a range of possibilities.

So, here goes - the goal of skilled play is for the players to be able to flex their creativity and problem solving (mostly) outside of rolling for effect X. Let's talk about the negative image first, just to make the positive easier to see. 5e has a lot of bells and whistles. It's perfectly possible (and fine) to run through whole sessions without doing anything but using spells and abilities as described in the rules to overcome obstacles. Obviously that's wrapped in some role playing, but there's no real movement outside the mechanics. An obstacle is presented, and abilities are consulted, rolled, and applied until the obstacle is overcome.

In a less mechanical environment, one where the solution to obstacles isn't so much a matter of apply skill or ability A, the player instead has to declare action X, wherein an attempt to overcome the obstacle is put in play but that is not reliant on skill or mechanic A. So player creativity and level of engagement with the diegetic gamestate is pushed to the front, above particular mechanical solutions.

Obviously, those are the extremes, and 5E, while it tends to the first, isn't entirely defined by it. I would contend that skilled play, in terms of 5E, is far more about the table approach than it is about the system. 5E can certainly trend the second way when players and GM are all playing with that as a desired gaming outcome, but it does take a certain level of commitment from the table.

I tend to disagree with this. I don't find density of rules to be particularly relevant to skilled play, but rather how well those rules interact so that I have a clear risk/reward picture I can leverage. Rolemaster isn't especially rules light, but features skilled play. B/X arguably isn't any less dense than 5e for rules, and it's a paragon of skilled play. To me, it's how well the rules create a tension in play procedures vs resource usage vs player skill at using both.

 

[Fenris-77]

5E obviously isn't as tight as BX, but that's really not a flaw as 5E also accommodates a lot more different play styles and genres. One key difference is that some facets of 5E completely obviate resource management in any kind of BX way (food and light specifically). That's also not a bad thing, per se, just different. As I said above, I think in the case of 5E that an attempt to raise skilled play to the level of desired core outcome requires a fair bit of buy in form the table as a whole, and possibly (but not necessarily) some mechanical faffing about.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think @Fenris-77 did a nice job of explaining what it is in post 309, Part of what makes it difficult to define well for 5e is that the system itself is designed to fight it. Take this blurb from gygax in the 1e phb

Spoiler: skilled players

“Skilled players always make a point of knowing what they are doing, i.e. they have an objective. They co-operate – particularly at lower-levels or at higher ones when they must face some particularly stiff challenge – in order to gain their ends. Superior players will not fight everything they meet, for they realise that wit is as good a weapon as the sword or the spell. When weakened by wounds, or nearly out of spells and vital equipment, a clever party will seek to leave the dungeons in order to rearm themselves. (He who runs away lives to fight another day.) When faced with a difficult situation, skilled players will not attempt endless variations on the same theme; when they find the method of problem solving fails to work, they begin to devise other solutions. Finally, good players will refrain from pointless arguments and needless harassment of the Dungeon Master when such bog the play of the game down into useless talking. Mistakes are possible, but they are better righted through reason and logic, usually at the finish of play for the day.”

cooperation, teamwork, communication, having goals. All of those things are important to skilled play & there is probably no argument that those things should result in better results than a party blindly soloing near each other like a bunch of mute uncoordinated roombas with pointy things. For that to apply though it requires there to be tangible quantifiable results for doing more than "focus fire y0" & downsides for not attempting it on some level. Without those things it's closer to a kabuki theater farce than the sort of competence porn it used to be capable of demonstrating in past editions

Meh, Gary griping about players doesn't move the needle much for me. A "skilled player" blurb that spends the last half talking about not arguing with the GM seems to not really be getting at play.

 

[Fenris-77]

I tend to disagree with this. I don't find density of rules to be particularly relevant to skilled play, but rather how well those rules interact so that I have a clear risk/reward picture I can leverage. Rolemaster isn't especially rules light, but features skilled play. B/X arguably isn't any less dense than 5e for rules, and it's a paragon of skilled play. To me, it's how well the rules create a tension in play procedures vs resource usage vs player skill at using both.

I would contend that it's broadly true, but very specifically true in the case of 5E. Obviously any given ruleset needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Edit: also keep in mind I specifically said it was a spectrum, not a binary.

 

[Ovinomancer]

5E obviously isn't as tight as BX, but that's really not a flaw as 5E also accommodates a lot more different play styles and genres. One key difference is that some facets of 5E completely obviate resource management in any kind of BX way (food and light specifically). That's also not a bas thing, per se, just different. As I said above, I think in the case of 5E that an attempt to raise skilled play to the level of desired core outcome requires a fair bit of buy in form the table as a whole, and possibly (but not necessarily) some mechanical faffing about.

Yes, I can agree with this, it's largely been my point -- the GM and players have some work to do to make 5e more conducive to skilled play. A basic agreement as to what's going to matter is necessary, for instance. "Does encumbrance matter," is a good question. Skilled play doesn't require it to, but if it does matter it's a great pressure point for skilled play.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I would contend that it's broadly true, but very specifically true in the case of 5E. Obviously any given ruleset needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Edit: also keep in mind I specifically said it was a spectrum, not a binary.

Agreed, although, on a reread, I also take exception to the idea that skilled play is about flexing creativity foremost. To me, it's about managing resources and leveraging the game systems, often with creativity. But, creative solutions alone do not produce skilled play without the pressure and leverage of a good resource management game and the leveraging of game systems. Honestly, if I can roll for effect X, and bring sufficient resources and fictional management to improve my odds or force an automatic success on that roll, this is the essence of skilled play for me when iterated over the whole game.

 

[Fenris-77]

Agreed, although, on a reread, I also take exception to the idea that skilled play is about flexing creativity foremost. To me, it's about managing resources and leveraging the game systems, often with creativity. But, creative solutions alone do not produce skilled play without the pressure and leverage of a good resource management game and the leveraging of game systems. Honestly, if I can roll for effect X, and bring sufficient resources and fictional management to improve my odds or force an automatic success on that roll, this is the essence of skilled play for me when iterated over the whole game.

Oh I agree completely, but skilled play in 5E probably isn't, as resource management is mostly out the window, or at least a solid chunk of it. I was just indexing the bit I thought was more relevant. If I want to emphasize resource management 5E is not the system I'd pick.