Alter Self hit dice

[Bad Paper]

When a 6th-level human wizard casts Alter Self into an elf, is her HD now 1 (the HD of an average elf) or 5 (the max HD of the spell)?

 

[Jdvn1]

The HD of the creature does not change. So, whatever the Elf started as.

Also, the Range is "Personal" and the Target is "You" so this couldn't happen.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The HD of the creature does not change. So, whatever the Elf started as.

Also, the Range is "Personal" and the Target is "You" so this couldn't happen.

The wizard is turning into an elf. Not turning an elf into anything.

And it's time for another "What the...!?" from the 3.5 FAQ!

When my sorcerer shapechanges into the form of a
creature with special attacks, what Hit Dice do I use to
calculate the DC of those abilities—the creature’s normal
HD, my caster level, or something else?

When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume
another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the
same as your normal Hit Dice.

For example, an 18th-level human sorcerer shapechanged
into a dire bear would be treated as a 12-HD creature (and not
an 18-HD creature) for the purpose of determining what effect
an evil cleric's blasphemy spell might have upon him. A 17th level
elf wizard shapechanged into a horned devil would use
the horned devil's 15 HD (rather than his own 17 HD) to
determine the save DC of his fear aura, stun, and infernal
wound supernatural attacks.

This has no effect on your hit points or any other statistics
derived from your HD, such as base attack bonus, base save
bonuses, and so on.

"Use your own hit dice. For example, don't use your own hit dice."

What the...!?

-Hyp.

 

[Jdvn1]

The wizard is turning into an elf. Not turning an elf into anything.

-Hyp.

Ooh, okay. The lack of "turning into" messed me up. Well, then it is possible and the HD caps out at 5.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ooh, okay. The lack of "turning into" messed me up. Well, then it is possible and the HD caps out at 5.

The hit dice limit the form you can choose - you can choose an elf, since an elf, as a race, has only 1 hit die.

But you're still a 6th level wizard with 6 hit dice... you just happen to be an elf instead of a human.

A tiefling wizard-12 could use Alter Self to turn into a Dretch - a 2 hit dice form - but he'd still have his own 12d4. He couldn't turn into a Babau - a 7 hit dice form.

-Hyp.

 

[sullivan]

"Use your own hit dice. For example, don't use your own hit dice."

What the...!?

-Hyp.

Come over here Timmy and help me feed it into the Universal Translator™ to see what comes out....

A#343>AOP$@%#$$$... Don't use the HD, except you use the HD up until the point where the HD mean anything outside of just a number of HD. So they don't affect the numeric values for HPs, BAB, saves, spell-like abilities, skill points, Feats, United Adventurers and Butter Churners union pay scale calculations, XP, or Christmas bonuses....#$121#$32eueu *thick, dark, acrid smoke begins billowing out of the venting*

Hmm, looks like I asked too much of it. I'll have to take it in for repairs.

 

[Jdvn1]

The hit dice limit the form you can choose - you can choose an elf, since an elf, as a race, has only 1 hit die.

But you're still a 6th level wizard with 6 hit dice... you just happen to be an elf instead of a human.

A tiefling wizard-12 could use Alter Self to turn into a Dretch - a 2 hit dice form - but he'd still have his own 12d4. He couldn't turn into a Babau - a 7 hit dice form.

-Hyp.

Yeah, that's what I thought, but this threw me off:

The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.

It seems like you could argue the new form has 5 HD.

 

[Jdvn1]

"Use your own hit dice. For example, don't use your own hit dice."

What the...!?

-Hyp.

... You really added a lot to your post after I saw it.

So, basically, the rules are vague.

 

[Jdvn1]

And it's time for another "What the...!?" from the 3.5 FAQ!

You should start a thread with just "What the...!?" 3.5 FAQ Moments.

 

[sullivan]

Yeah, that's what I thought, but this threw me off:
It seems like you could argue the new form has 5 HD.

Yes, it would seem it does.

So your 20th level elf character has to be careful when augmenting a simple disguse because she makes herself vulnerable to Hypnotic Pattern by having Alter Self turn her skin a lighter shade of pale through Alter Self into [another member of her native race of] elf. *boggle* Fortunately it shouldn't be too tough a saving throw.

But wait, it gets better. If you are a 20th level Monk doing this via a miscelaneous magic item that does an Alter Self you also make yourself very vulneable to Turning. As a Monk you are an Outsider (can be Turned, right?), but under the influence of the Alter Self as described above you are turned as a 1-HD Outsider.