Alternate Fighter

[BrooklynKnight]

As if you hadnt seen this topic enough, i'm gonna throw my hat into the ring.

I've always seen the fighter as the weapon specialist, but in a diffrent light. Instead of specializing on a broad range of marital weapons, they hone their skill and focus into a single favorite weapon which they use their entire lives. Their skill in combat allows them to use other types of marital weapons however.

One might think this sounds exactly like the fighter is now, getting Marital Weapon Prof for all Martial weapons, but I propose a small change.

Instead they receive only a single Marital Weapon Proficiency. In any one Martial Weapon of their choice. For example, a Longsword.
As for the other weapons, fighters would receive an ability that negates the non proficiency penalty for all other non martial weapons?

How is this diffrent you ask? Simple. Though they do not receive they penalty, they are not actually proficient. Thus any feats that require proficiency with the weapon they are not eligible for.

Granted its mostly a flavor issue, but mechanically it lowers their options and makes them a tad weaker. Why? You'll see in a moment.

Second I think I'd remove Heavy Armor Proficency. In most eras Heavy Armor was restricted to Ceremonial wear or Mounted Combat. When Fighting on foot mobility was usually more important then being heavily armored.

With these two changes I think enough is retracted that you can raise a fighters skills per level to 4 instead of 2.

So 3 small changes, or tweaks. Marital Weapon Proficiency/Combat Familiarity, Heavy Armor Pref removed, Skill Points increased.

I'm going to try this in my next D&D game but from general experience I think it would work well. If anyone else tries this let me know how it feels on.

 

[CRGreathouse]

In my experience, most fighters wear light armor and use only two weapons (ranged and melee), taking feats for only one. As a result, I don't think that your changes weaken the fighter at all.

As a resukt, I think the the third change (skill points) is too much. Obviously, if you like giving out more skill points it's a good thing -- but I don't.

Then again, if you think fighters need a power increase, this wouldn't be a bad change at all.

 

[Frum]

I like the idea of increasing the skill points per level for Fighters, and I like the "weapon familiarity" idea, thematically, at least. I also think that losing heavy armor proficiency is a small loss, bordering on the insignificant.

How does your weapon familiarity rule for Fighters play out in other classes? If only Fighters are weakened in this way, it makes other martial classes much more versatile. The effects of such a change on the balance between classes are what I would worry about in this case.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Actually, i have to double check the other fighting classes but i thought only the fighter received proficiency in ALL marital weapons. IF this is the case i might change it for all classes to do the same.

Loosing heavy armor is a big deal. Because its an option. Removing the available options to a chracter weakens that character even if they dont use those options. Loosing the option of heavy armor forces the fighter to seriously consider placing dex as a moderate stat because they no longer have heavy armor to fall back on. They also need to consider investing in a magic shield or other items to increase their AC to make up for those 2-3 points they cant get naturally anymore.

And yes, I "like" to give more skill points to fighters, or moreaccurantly i'd like too. But not without them paying a price.

 

[CombatWombat51]

Art, I think this is the best idea I've seen from you (I'm formally Mortuus Solidus, BTW)

There's a few points that need to be considered, though:

How will other characters with all martial weapons be treated?

Giving the fighter 4 SP/LV doesn't just change the power of the fighter, but it changes the flavor. Skills aren't a key ability of the fighter, but something like hit points are. But, if you're purposefully changing the flavor a wee bit, then I think it's cool.

They'll need additional skills to go with those skill points, unless you want to force fighters to either take cross class skills, be crafters/professionals, or deal with animals. Maybe something like Spot, and some kind of Knowledge. Or even better, some skills that especially fit the slightly modified flavor that you have in mind.

Mort/CW51

 

[BrooklynKnight]

You're right. It IS a flavor issue, but its also a bit personal. I've never seen fighters as the "unskilled" combat monsters D&D makes them out to be. Fighters use more then their talent in combat and dealing and taking damage. They use wit and knowledge against their opponent. That is the true diffrence between them and the barbairan. (IMO).

So, for the skills, I think i'd add a Knowledge or two, and maybe spot and listen. One final option is possibly survial. Im gonna havta look at the skill list and think long and hard about it before i solidify which new skills get added to the list.

As for other marital classses and their proficiencies. I think PRC's can be left alone. As for the base classes with them, its a tough decision. It would be simple to make them all the same as the fighter. One Marital Prof of their choice, and Marital Familarity for the rest. More difficult would be giving them a list of weapons they are trained to use. I think it will be ok if we leave them the same as the new fighter, and perhaps tweak the fighter further.

Give him the option of taking a marital weapon feat or an exotic weapon feat for his primary weapon.

 

[Khaalis]

From the SRD:

MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL]
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
(All others) You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A cleric who chooses the War domain automatically gains the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to his deity’s favored weapon as a bonus feat, if the weapon is a martial one. He need not select it.

1) This answers the question of what classes get all martial weapons - barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers .

2) Your Combat Familiarity (removing the non-proficiency penalty on all other weapons) is the same thing as granting the Fighter: ALL Simple Weapon Proficiency, ALL Martial Weapon Proficiency, and ALL Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. You aren't restricting here you are going backwards!

To do what I "think" you are trying to accomplish here, I would suggest something along this line.

Remove the Special Classes stipulation from the core Martial Weapon Proficiency feat. Remove the "ALL" from the class descriptions before Martial Weapon Proficiency.

MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL]
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A cleric who chooses the War domain automatically gains the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to his deity’s favored weapon as a bonus feat, if the weapon is a martial one. He need not select it.

Now, all classes that gain Martial Weapon Proficiency gain proficiency in only one martial weapon of choice. They also will still gain proficiency in ALL Simple Weapons. This covers your basic concept of Weapon Familiarity.

However - IF you want them to be more functional with other Martial Weapons but not Fully Proficienct, add a Class Ability to the Fighter under the weapon & armor rules - or give them a new feat.

MARTIAL WEAPON FAMILIARITY [GENERAL]
You understand the basic principles of how to use all martial weapons in combat, other than your chosen weapon.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with non-proficient martial weapons at only a -2 non-proficiency penalty.
Normal: When using a martial weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Now they are more functional but still need to take proficiency in each weapon they want to use normally.

Now if you WANT them to suffer no proficiency penalty with ANY weapon...
Then you need to change them thusly.

FIGHTER WEAPON FAMILIARITY [GENERAL]
You understand how to use all types of weapons in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with all weapons normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL]
Choose a type of martial weapon. You are specialy trained to use that type of martial weapon in combat to its fullest extent.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: A fighter may select Martial Weapon Proficiency as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Hope this helps. Take it with a grain of salt - JMHO.

 

[Li Shenron]

IMXP it always happened that a character start with no particular idea on which weapon he wants to get all his Focus/Specialization/ImprCritical on, and waits for a couple of levels until he finds or buys some magic weapon, and then decides to stick with it. In that case, with your HR he'll have to simply waste an extra feat for not having planned beforehand. It's not a big price, but hey who wants to waste a feat?

If it's a flavor issue, then fine. I personally don't like it because I think that being proficient with ALL MWs from the start simply reflects a general familiarity with ALL weapons (except the weird ones) and not an actual training with each of them. But what matters is only what you like in your setting, and you already pointed out that he won't get the -4 in any case...

The Heavy Armor prof is also a one-feat cost, or sometimes nothing at all (if the PC didn't have any will to go for the tank route).

In general, I think that the Fighter is still going to become better with your HR, except that maybe he'll end spending SP in cross-class skills since his list is very short (...if you have HR-ed cross-class skills, then it's a good bonus to have +2 skill points).

------------------------------------------

You may also consider this alternative (if your main aim here is granting the extra skill points): to allow every class to either

1) use a smaller hit dice in exchange for +2 skill points/level
2) use a larger hit dice in exchange for -2 skill points/level

With some limits of course (min 2sp/level, max HD d12).

For example, one could either play a Fighter with HD d10 and 2 sp/level or with HD d8 and 4sp/level (I wouldn't go further than 1 step).

Or, class by class:

Fighter: d10 + 2sp / d8 + 4sp
Paladin: d10 + 2sp / d8 + 4sp
Barbarian: d12 + 4sp / d10 + 6sp
Ranger: d10 + 4sp / d8 + 6sp / d6 + 8sp
Monk: d10 + 2sp / d8 + 4sp / d6 + 6sp
Cleric: d8 + 2sp / d6 + 4sp
Druid: d10 + 2sp / d8 + 4sp / d6 + 6sp
Bard: d8 + 4sp / d6 + 6sp / d4 + 8sp
Rogue: d8 + 6sp / d6 + 8sp / d4 +10sp
Sorcerer: d4 + 2sp
Wizard: d4 + 2sp

Which allows for interesting (slight) variants, such as a hybrid 3.0/3.5 Ranger, a more Rogueish Ranger, a less combat oriented Cleric or Bard, a more robust Druid, a more combat oriented Rogue, an expert...

 

[BrooklynKnight]

See, all your options deal with changing things far too much. I dont want to lower the fighters HP. Might as well just take Ranger in that case.

Khallis, i think you're confused with how i've done Marital Weapon Familiarity.
All 4 of the martial classes, instead of receiving proficiency with all weapons instead get the -4 penalty for using a weapon untrained negated for martial weapons. They arent proficient, but the numerical effect is still the same. If they want to gain feats that deal with the weapon, they still have to buy a feat to be fully proficient in it.

I'm not removing the penalty on ALL weapons. I'm removing them from martial weapons. And if i'm not mistaken fighters already get all simple weapons.

 

[Khaalis]

Khallis, i think you're confused with how i've done Marital Weapon Familiarity.
All 4 of the martial classes, instead of receiving proficiency with all weapons instead get the -4 penalty for using a weapon untrained negated for martial weapons. They arent proficient, but the numerical effect is still the same. If they want to gain feats that deal with the weapon, they still have to buy a feat to be fully proficient in it.

I'm not removing the penalty on ALL weapons. I'm removing them from martial weapons. And if i'm not mistaken fighters already get all simple weapons.

Actually you are missing the point I was making.

Your "Fix": "All 4 of the martial classes, instead of receiving proficiency with all weapons instead get the -4 penalty for using a weapon untrained negated for martial weapons. They arent proficient, but the numerical effect is still the same."

Fighter already gets "proficiency in all martial weapons". They suffer no profiency penalty with martial weapons? Why? ... Because Martial Weapon Proficiency grants:
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

This Isnt a FIX. It isnt even a change.

So where are you removing proficiency??

What does the Fighter get if they become "proficient" in your system? Nothing! They are already "proficient" per the rule you already created. The ONLY thing your sytem does is FORCE a melee class to SINK/WASTE a feat that grants them NOTHING other than access to Weapon Focus (& Greater), Weapon Specialization (& Greater).

If you really want to penalize Fighters a Feat, just say they dont get one at 1st level. That is basically what you are doing. That or FORCING 90% of the melees away from any form of weapon specialization route and making them all be generalist.

JMHO - but personally, I wouldnt play a melee class under that restriction if I had any desire to ever follow a specific weapon path. Its too much of a discriminatory penalty in that it singles out martial weapon specialists and specifically penalizes them. If that is really what you want to do, then you have succeeded. If not, you need to relook at some of the other people's posts here for examples on what to do. Again, take it with a grain of salt - its JMHO.