Alternate turning rules?

[SteelDraco]

I'm growing dissatisfied with the existing turning rules. It just seems to me that they're too all-or-nothing. The cleric either ends the fight with one roll, or has little impact on the way things go.

This mostly stems from a recent adventure in which the party's cleric destroyed the party's main foe for that adventure with one turning roll. This was a creature that they had been after for some time, and it just seemed... wrong somehow that there wasn't a big, climactic fight. Just one PC waving his holy symbol and getting a lucky roll, and *poof*! Fight's over. The rest of the group - including the guy playing the cleric - agreed with me. It wasn't as fun as a big fight would have been.

It's possible the problem's with Greater Turning (which was used), but I don't think so. A turned creature is just as useless if it's reduced to cowering as far away from the priest as it can get. It's out of the combat.

There are solutions, of course. Every powerful creature could have Turn Resistance, so the cleric's ability is usually useless. Throw hordes of creatures at the party to whittle away the priest's turning ability. And so on. But really, I don't like those as solutions. I'd prefer something that made the ability less all-or-nothing, more something that could turn the tide of a fight, but wouldn't win it outright all the time.

I've been considering how to do this. The most promising of my ideas is to cause penalties on a turned creature, without actually causing it to flee or explode. The two ways to do this I've been toying with are negative levels or ability damage. I know, neither are supposed to work on undead, but the mechanics are solid.

Negative levels would reduce the combat effectiveness of turned creatures based on how well the turning cleric rolled. Roll well enough, or keep it up for enough rounds, and the affected creatures can be destroyed. Minor creatures would be more susceptible, while big tough critters would just have penalties to their actions. This seems to me to be a pretty good solution to all my problems.

The other option is ability damage, probably to Charisma. This is the stat that creatures like undead use for their powers, and they all have a Cha score. Charisma damage would reduce the effectiveness of their special abilities, and eventually cause them to become incapacitated. Unfortunately, it also doesn't discriminate very well between the power level of the undead - the Cha score of, say, a lich might not be all that much higher than a skeleton or wight.

So, those are my thoughts. Anyone have any comments? Alternate solutions to the turning problem? Or am I the only one who thinks it's a problem?

 

[Zerakon]

I am also dissatisfied with the game mechanics of turning, but I don't have a solid answer for you. I'm working on a bunch of other sweeping rules changes to the way magic works, but doing something about turning is definitely on my to do list.

My early rough thoughts on the subject have been to change it to something like this:

A successful turn attempt damages the undead you are turning; possibly the better you roll or more charismatic you are, the more damage your turn attempt can do. Possibly the turned creatures are stunned for a round, but definitely don't become "useless" as the rule currently exists.

Having said that, I think your negative levels concept has promise, and I agree that the Charisma penalties probably won't work very well.

Please keep us posted if you work up a system you are happy with; I would like to integrate something like this into my Will Power alternate mysticism rules. Actually, one of my objectives is to have a variety of "balanced" institutional powers, only one of which is "turn undead." I'd like to see one religious institution grant its priests turn undead, another grant something like bonus magic use, another maybe grants some sort of combat bonus, etc. All clerics/priests turning/rebuking undead is a sacred cow that should have been removed from 3E IMO.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Lela]

I don't know that I'd change the rules. I think I might go with the Turn Resistance thing (making it impossible/hard for the Cleric to turn him) and then add in some minions. Every BBEUG (big bad evil undead guy) is going to have some. And if you get the right ones they can be really annoying to a party. It's then that the Cleric gets to shine.

But, when that does happen, I'd say go into descripto mode. You describe exactly what happens (taking over). A comment or two back and forth and then, in a big dramatic voice, "Foul Creature of the Night, you have disturbed the cause of peace for the last time. FEEL PELOR'S WRATH!!!!"

The blinding rays of the Sun spring forth from the image of Pelor on Runir's chest, causing those around to shield their eyes. Runir, who sees through the light as if it were that of a torch, watches as his foe's skin and sinew evaporates. As the remains reach towards you, in some feeble attempt to strike you down, it turns to dust, it's last scream silent.


That salvages some of the lost climax and gives the players a sense of having done something worth while. Sure, it pushes the Cleric to the fore but he already did that with the insta-kill anyway.

 

[SteelDraco]

My early rough thoughts on the subject have been to change it to something like this:

A successful turn attempt damages the undead you are turning; possibly the better you roll or more charismatic you are, the more damage your turn attempt can do. Possibly the turned creatures are stunned for a round, but definitely don't become "useless" as the rule currently exists.

Damage is another option I've considered. While I think I'd consider it as a feat, I'm not sure how much I like it as the basic mechanic. It gets the point across, sure, but I don't think it's terribly flavorful or interesting. I do like the idea of a turned creature being temporarily stunned, however.

Please keep us posted if you work up a system you are happy with; I would like to integrate something like this into my Will Power alternate mysticism rules.

I'll do that.

Hrm. Your stun idea made me realize that there are quite a few conditions that might be appropriate, depending on how well the cleric's ability compares with the affected critter. That led me to an idea. Another thing that might work is a table of different effects, based on how well the cleric rolls. Say, 1d20+cleric level+Cha modifier, minus the undead's effective hit dice (HD + turn resistance). The really powerful stuff (lots of divine damage, outright destruction, etc) would be at the top of the chart. Lower stuff might be fear conditions, small amounts of damage, penalties to actions, etc. A high-level priest could be sure to blow piddly undead out of the water, while mid-level critters would be seriously affected, and creatures of comparable level would have penalties. Creatures significantly more powerful than the cleric might be affected with minor conditions, or perhaps even not at all if the cleric rolls poorly.

Actually, one of my objectives is to have a variety of "balanced" institutional powers, only one of which is "turn undead." I'd like to see one religious institution grant its priests turn undead, another grant something like bonus magic use, another maybe grants some sort of combat bonus, etc. All clerics/priests turning/rebuking undead is a sacred cow that should have been removed from 3E IMO.

I'd tend to agree with that. I've considered fiddling with the domains so that each grants a different use of the channeled divine energy, and only certain ones grant a normal cleric's Turn Undead ability. Some might grant skill bonuses, attack bonuses, or the ability to turn or command other things. The Magic domain might grant Spell Power +2 for a few rounds, while Animal lets you command natural critters.

 

[RangerWickett]

Hope you don't mind if I hop in for a sec. I'm revising E.N. Publishing's The Elements of Magic for a second edition release, and one thing we're changing is that we want all sorts of spellcasters to be covered by the system, wizards, sorcerers, clerics, etc.

The way the system works, I was thinking of converting 'turning' into a type of Charm spell that works on undead, making them less willing to fight. The charm spell rules would work for all types of creatures the same, so you could have a Charm Magical Beast spell called "Turn Magical Beasts" just as easily as a Charm Undead spell called "Turn Undead." The spell's effects could be resisted or lessened with a will save, meaning you would have less of an all-or-nothing effect.

 

[Aaron2]

Turning

I don't care much for how turning is in 3rd edition since the whole concept of summoning positive energy is a little too close to the Cleric's spells for my taste. Plus, the # per day is too un-1e.

I'm planning on removing it all together and allow a cleric to present his holy symbol as a standard action. If the undead is equal or less thas his level, they won't attack him but can otherwise operate normally. If the cleric's level is twice the undeads hit dice then the undead must stay more than 30 feet away.

I'm reminded of the scene in the Mummy 2 where they hold the scarab swarms at bay.

I'm also considering allowing non-clerics who are failthful believers in a good god to turn at 1/2 they level.

In exchange, I'm giving the Clerics bonus feats as a wizards.

Aaron

 

[DaveStebbins]

I don't think the current system is broken but, to try and offer a constructive comment, try to make sure a complete turning is still a possibility. I like the idea of something between complete success and complete failure, but remember that turning undead is only one of several all-or-nothing attacks (like hold person or slay living). Unless you nerf them all, you should still leave the "all" result as a definite possibility.

-Dave

 

[Nifft]

How to make Turn Undead not end a fight immediately

1) Use a variety of undead critters, of different HD. 4 base Ghouls, 2 advanced 6HD Ghouls, and 1 advanced 8HD Ghast. (Encounter Level 7.5)

2) Use a variety of critter types (not ALL undead). Example: Hobgoblin Cleric6, 4 Hobgoblin Archers (Ftr4), 10 Bugbear Zombies. (Encounter Level 11.5)

3) Location, location, location! Spells like Desecrate and Unhallow make undead harder to Turn.

4) Disguises! Especially Illusions.

-- Nifft