D&D 5E (2014) Dispel Evil and Good cleric spell 5th level in use

[Genghis Don]

Last night we played a big battle with a dragon possessed by a ghost dragon as a big boss fight in the adventure Divine Contention for 11th level PCs. An army of undead led by the dragon attacks the town of Leilon the same time a cult of Talos army attacks with both looking for a McGuffin. The PCs have several smaller encounters with both factions and end up with the final fight being with the dragon.

The cleric teleports with the wizard to the back of the dragon in the first encounter with the dragon. He wants to use the break enchantment part of the spell to drive out the ghost possession on the green dragon. The spell says that you tough the creature and no save.

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I rule that teleporting to the back of the dragon that is flying requires a Athletics or Acrobatics check and the cleric fails. I give him a Dex save to catch himself before falling, and he fails. I lastly give a chance to touch the dragon as he is falling to do his spell, and he fails. He falls 60ft just before the dragon blasts the area he is in with 77 points of necrotic damage. He is dying and no longer concentrating. A few minutes later he is back up and the dragon moved onto finding the McGuffin and is perched on the tower fighting some ghosts of the past heroes of the town. The summoned eagles fly the PCs up to the tower and the cleric wants to cast the spell again. He is standing next to the dragon on the tower and says there is no save and he is just touching him to end the ghost possession.

I ruled that touching in this case would still need an attack roll. I figured it would be similar to a shadow or wraith touching you to death touch you and that you are trying to avoid being touched. I did give him advantage to the roll since the size of the dragon and the point that he was not trying to penetrate the dragon natural armor. Wondering what others would do or thought.

It worked and the dragon fell near death with the PCs pondering weather to kill it or release it back to its lair now that the ghost was not controlling it. They sent it back with the bargain that the dragon would not attack the town for 200 years. They could go to the dragon for future information or aid once if needed, but I do not think they will.

This beats what the barbarian was planning as a side note. He wanted to jump on the dragon and then swing a grappling hook around it like a 40ft horse. Secure the grapple and tie himself to the dragon so he could then chop the back of its head. Sounds cool, but all I was thinking was what checks and saves he would need to do this. Like the poor cleric in the first encounter I was thinking that he needed more than just all this can happen in a single turn. That player does like to get ahead of things and just assumes a lot.

Was it cool- yes. I think it could have been cooler if I thought about it more before the play started and knew what the cleric was planning.

sounds like fun, plans go awry, we roll the dice because it's a game, not story hour.

the dex save was kindness (although maybe the acrobatics dc was a little high and this was a mercy? )
absolutely require a spell attack roll to touch (kind to give adv, but you logic makes full sense to me/i approve).

I always worry/review when characters die, but you were just a dm here, and a fair, even kindly, one it seems to me

 

[Genghis Don]

I find it a little unusual that you don't need to roll to hit someone to end a condition with the spell, but you do in order to banish them outright. However it's true that the spell does not make that a condition. That an unwilling creature cannot make a saving throw or Dodge someone coming at them with a Dispel Evil or Good is a bit illogical, but I think the takeaway here is that nobody under the effects of those conditions would want to make a saving throw or dodge their removal, and the game designers felt that it would be unfair to force someone to resist the spell that can free them. YMMV, of course.

it's unusual in that of course it is to be ignored as idiotic & erroneous. game designers make errors, the DM never ought swallow turds when they know better

 

[Genghis Don]

no delete is dumb

 

[plecostomus]

Was it cool- yes. I think it could have been cooler if I thought about it more before the play started and knew what the cleric was planning.

Feel like there should be a sidebar in the DMG that tells DMs clerics can do the following things by the time they have 5th Level Cleric spells, largely without saves:

• Identify and cure any disease or poison*
• End any curse or attunement to a cursed item
• End any possession/charm/fright by extraplanar invaders (invaders are anything with the following creature types: Aberration, Celestial, Fey, Fiend, Undead)
• Locate any extraplanar invader or desecrated/consecrated area within 30 feet
• Instantly create food and water for a decent number of people, or cleanse food/water sources
• Raise the dead or Undead
• (with save) Cause the Undead to flee in terror or instantly disintegrate
• (with save + 1 min concentration [Banishment] -or- melee spell attack [Dispel Evil and Good]) Send an extraplanar invader back to their home plane

Then DMs might be more prepared for how the presence of a cleric may affect their plots/bosses.

I think 7th Level spells are when wizards start warping all of reality and doing whatever they want, so a cleric's specialized anti-invader list is less important. But a lot of the cleric's special spells are low level (Lesser Restoration, which cures any disease, is 2nd Level). Special shout-out to the cleric-only Forbiddance at 6th Level though - what a weird spell!

*Under 2014 rules. In 2024 non-magical diseases are scrubbed from the text/converted to a poison with riders and this does some weird things to cleric abilities related to disease. Detect Poison and Disease still exists as a spell though.

 

[Piperken]

...He is standing next to the dragon on the tower and says there is no save and he is just touching him to end the ghost possession.

I ruled that touching in this case would still need an attack roll. I figured it would be similar to a shadow or wraith touching you to death touch you and that you are trying to avoid being touched. I did give him advantage to the roll since the size of the dragon and the point that he was not trying to penetrate the dragon natural armor. Wondering what others would do or thought...

In the moment what you decided I think was fine! Deliberating now, I feel like if it were me, I would ask the player to make an Athletics or maybe a Dexterity check of some kind vs. an attack roll, to touch. The dragon may not be purposefully avoiding the character, or is distracted by what the rest of the party is doing; even in a tight space a creature that size can move frightfully quick and in unexpected ways.

I could see a check like being granted w/ advantage for it, based on the scene in media res.

...This beats what the barbarian was planning as a side note. He wanted to jump on the dragon and then swing a grappling hook around it like a 40ft horse. Secure the grapple and tie himself to the dragon so he could then chop the back of its head. Sounds cool, but all I was thinking was what checks and saves he would need to do this...

That's a lot; I'd at least ask a few questions to be sure about the order of intents. As listed, seems pretty risky!

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I was thinking of a DC15 for the ability check and likely would have let him land ok if he rolled a 13 or 14, with maybe some penalty. He rolled around a 5 so it did not matter. Same for the DEX save where I was around a 12 and he rolled a 6 or 7. Again, same for the touching roll in the first encounter where he rolled a 3.

The wizard cast dimension door to teleport to the dragon so he was able to take one other with him.

I stand by my initial thought that what you did in the moment resulted in fun, and that’s a win!


Now, ideally, what I would have done with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight:

The Wizard and their Cleric friend would arrive perfectly on the back of the dragon per the dimension door spell - since the dragon was within range and the effect of the spell is Instantaneous.
"You teleport yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired."

Therefore the cleric would be then touching the dragon. If the cleric was being tactical, they likely would have Readied dispel evil and good to fire instantly upon arrival on the dragon’s back. If not Readied, then the acrobatics/athletics ability check (and possibly the subsequent Dex save should the check fail) would come into play to stay on the dragon's back long enough to cast dispel evil and good. Since that spell does not require an attack roll, it just requires that the target be within reach, AND since this is an awesome corner case use of this 5e 5th level spell, I would not make the player roll to hit.

My players would not be happy if I added requirements to either spell outside of their descriptions. For the sake of consistency, I try to do my best to run 5e spells as close to RAW as possible (while sometimes, that is admittedly very challenging... looking at you control water when cast... under water!) - unless there was some discussion about a given spell at session 0 or some other time between sessions.

 

[coyote6]

Note that it takes two actions to Break Enchantment: an action to cast the spell, giving the caster protection from supernatural foes, and then a Magic action to use the Break Enchantment or Dismissal functions:

"For the duration, Celestials, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, and Undead have Disadvantage on attack rolls against you. You can end the spell early by using either of the following special functions." Both functions then say, "As a Magic action..."

 

[TwoSix]

It definitely seems like the text of the spell is running under a different narrative of "possessed" than a lot of fantasy gamers would assume. It seems to be treating "possession" as a momentary condition, where an ally might be locked down for a brief period but their movement is jerky and stilted enough that the caster can still treat the ally as an ally and just touch them.

The spell doesn't seem to factor in a narrative of long-term possession, wherein the possessing spirit has near-perfect control over the possessed creature, as per the OP's example of a ghost possessing a dragon long enough to make and control an army.

For this long-term possession case, I would probably rule that the ghost and the dragon are two separate characters sharing a space, such that the caster would need to use the "Dismissal" option on the ghost, which does require a spell attack.

But this is definitely a spell where the designers didn't think through all the possible use cases of the spell, and where the natural language use of "possessed" causes issues.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Note that it takes two actions to Break Enchantment: an action to cast the spell, giving the caster protection from supernatural foes, and then a Magic action to use the Break Enchantment or Dismissal functions:

"For the duration, Celestials, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, and Undead have Disadvantage on attack rolls against you. You can end the spell early by using either of the following special functions." Both functions then say, "As a Magic action..."

The 2024 Magic action does not necessitate a melee spell attack (for reference, see the Shocking Grasp cantrip which explicitly calls for a melee spell attack).
Of course, this thread is discussing the 2014 version of the spell anyway…

 

[Swarmkeeper]

It definitely seems like the text of the spell is running under a different narrative of "possessed" than a lot of fantasy gamers would assume. It seems to be treating "possession" as a momentary condition, where an ally might be locked down for a brief period but their movement is jerky and stilted enough that the caster can still treat the ally as an ally and just touch them.

The spell doesn't seem to factor in a narrative of long-term possession, wherein the possessing spirit has near-perfect control over the possessed creature, as per the OP's example of a ghost possessing a dragon long enough to make and control an army.

For this long-term possession case, I would probably rule that the ghost and the dragon are two separate characters sharing a space, such that the caster would need to use the "Dismissal" option on the ghost, which does require a spell attack.

But this is definitely a spell where the designers didn't think through all the possible use cases of the spell, and where the natural language use of "possessed" causes issues.

While a reasonable interpretation, I think the Possession ability of Ghosts implies otherwise:

The possession lasts until the body drops to 0 hit points, the ghost ends it as a bonus action, or the ghost is turned or forced out by an effect like the dispel evil and good spell. When the possession ends, the ghost reappears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the body. The target is immune to this ghost's Possession for 24 hours after succeeding on the saving throw or after the possession ends.

As DM, I wouldn’t add any additional requirements to the dispel evil and good spell as called out in the ability above.