D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

[evilbob]

How do you figure that? I understand why for fighters and rogues if they are using a vex weapon - which is a pretty specific choice (and unlikely to be every attack) but how is everyone else doing that?

It's all the things! Every class can do this. Vex, rogue hiding with cunning action, barbarian's reckless attacks, basically everything a battle master does, (monk's stunning strike at level 5,) Guiding Bolt, Faerie Fire, Shield Master - prone is basically thrown around like candy any more, literally any class can take Command with Magic Initiate, or if it's not that it's something else. There are tons of ways to get advantage, tons and tons. It's the standard, not the exception.

 

[Reynard]

D&D5e (and 2024?) assume 1 Monster vs Party as the standard encounter.

Wait, what?

 

[Distracted DM]

D&D5e (and 2024?) assume 1 Monster vs Party as the standard encounter.

Wait, what?

Maybe they're thinking of the old 3e "A monster of CR X should drain 1/4 of four PCs of level X's resources"? No idea otherwise.

 

[TheSword]

It's all the things! Every class can do this. Vex, rogue hiding with cunning action, barbarian's reckless attacks, basically everything a battle master does, (monk's stunning strike at level 5,) Guiding Bolt, Faerie Fire, Shield Master - prone is basically thrown around like candy any more, literally any class can take Command with Magic Initiate, or if it's not that it's something else. There are tons of ways to get advantage, tons and tons. It's the standard, not the exception.

Okay, so most classes may have a method by which they can get advantage, but that doesn’t mean every PC uses that method. Having to take the specific subclass or have a specific spell doesn’t make it ubiquitous it makes it a possibility but that comes at an opportunity cost that won’t be compatible with how a lot of people want to play their characters.

I don’t think that has fundamentally changed with 2024 5e though. Faerie fire has been around since 5e launch. As have most of those other things.

 

[Distracted DM]

I don’t think that has fundamentally changed with 2024 5e though. Faerie fire has been around since 5e launch. As have most of those other things.

Well.. weapon masteries changed it a lot, right? Forcing a save vs knockdown as part of every hit with your attack is pretty big.

 

[TheSword]

Well.. weapon masteries changed it a lot, right? Forcing a save vs knockdown as part of every hit with your attack is pretty big.

Sure but they were for two classes that we were repeatedly told didn’t have interesting stuff to do? They’re given options for interesting stuff that other classes already have and that breaks 5e, pull the other one, it has bells on it.

 

[Stalker0]

Sure but they were for two classes that we were repeatedly told didn’t have interesting stuff to do? They’re given options for interesting stuff that other classes already have and that breaks 5e, pull the other one, it has bells on it.

yeah but as they were also some of the more popular classes. so now that most classes have the means to generate saving throws that can cause a boss "big problems" it puts more pressure on the legendary resistance.

Now I'm all for that personally, I hated that LR was this weird minigame between just the spellcasters and the boss most of the time, but it does make a difference.

 

[nevin]

There should be a caveat here, I think. Bad guys have to survive contact with the PC's in order to react to their efforts. Now maybe other campaigns are different, but in the ones I play in, there aren't often survivors to tell the tale...

Plus, how quickly one can react is questionable. If I run an encounter with my PC's and they are stymied by the resistances or special abilities of an enemy, even if they can somehow run away, what can they do in a short term?

You'd need a long rest to change out spells, if your class even allows it. You can't just retrain feats. If you need different weapons, you need to go out and acquire them (ditto with any sundries, including scrolls and potions). This all takes effort, and isn't going to happen overnight.

I've heard a lot of people justify, for example: "well monsters know to finish off fallen foes because Clerics" and then I go through encounter after encounter with no NPC's healers in sight. Or having NPC casters just randomly have scrolls of Dispel Magic to foil some strategy of the PC's- where did these scrolls come from, and what did they have to do to acquire them, and why haven't they needed to use them on something else before now?

It's ok to make changes to the game in order for it to continue to run smoothly. But you can't just say using DM fiat isn't using DM fiat. I once played a Fire happy Sorcerer who did lots of bonus fire damage (PF1e game) through various means.

Suspiciously, a lot more enemies with fire resistance showed up, which came to a head with a group of mercenaries who all had protection from fire potions ready. The DM was like "well, people have heard of you, so they know to prepare..."

And I was like "First of all, who, among our enemies has been spreading this information? Our last adventure had us fighting undead for a week! What, did some ghost go whisper to the mercenaries "hey man, you better have fire resistance to fight these guys"? And also, the last time we were in a major city, we were barely able to find 5 potions of healing- how did these 12 guys each get a potion of fire resistance?".

If he felt he needed to use these tactics to deal with an extra potent Fireball decimating his encounters, well, he's the DM. I guess he's gotta do what he's gotta do. But don't try to snow the players with a voodoo shark (an explanation that just raises more questions than it answers)!

The game won't always run smoothly when consequences come into play.

Players actions can cause life to be hard and unsmooth. I agree that considering how fast information can flow and having the reactions to events match the narrative of the story is important.

I do not agree, if that's what was meant, that any reaction that makes the game harder or more punishing on the PC's is wrong. Sometimes the over the top reaction that blows up their world is what would and should happen in reaction to what they do. And honestly if your players don't leave any survivors just to prevent flow of inormation, one cleric with a speak with dead spell is going to happen eventually. Plus the grapevine and rumors are far worse than reality given a group of people who never leave survivors. That all by itself would cause extreme reactions and consequences.

 

[M_Natas]

Maybe they're thinking of the old 3e "A monster of CR X should drain 1/4 of four PCs of level X's resources"? No idea otherwise.

It is in the Encounter Building Guidlines for (2014) 5e and in the Name CR. A Cr 4 monster is a medium challenge for a 4th level party. The standard assumption is one Monster vs a Party.
Everything else in encounter building needs actual math and XP budgets to figure out. The Design intent is obvious.

 

[Distracted DM]

Sure but they were for two classes that we were repeatedly told didn’t have interesting stuff to do? They’re given options for interesting stuff that other classes already have and that breaks 5e, pull the other one, it has bells on it.

The question was whether there was a big shift on how available advantage was in 5e24 vs 14. Adding this every-attack to knockdown feature would qualify as a "Yes, it's even more available."