Alternative Skill System

[Opsy]

This is my first post to the forum. English isn't my natural language so I apologize for my grammar, vocabulary and possibly, orthography...

I'm thinking in use in my campaign an alternate skill system and I would want your opinions...

When a character levels up, he gets some skill points plus his Int modifier. I think this is illogical because most of abilities don't depend of Intelligence. Otherwise, a standard fighter has low Intelligence and gets normally only 2 or 3 skill points in total. These aren't enough to develop 'fighter things' like Jump, Ride, Swim, Climb...

My proposal is the next:
When a character levels up, he chooses which ability want to develop. He gets the points for the class level (2 for fighter, 4 for druids...) plus his modifier in chosen ability. He can spend his points in skill points with these costs:

1 point: Class skills using chosen ability.
2 points: Cross-class skills using chosen ability or class skills using another ability.
3 points: Cross-class skills not using chosen ability.

Example.
A fighter with 18 Str, chooses develop Strength. He gets 6 skill points.
He can increase Jump for 1 point, Ride for 2 points and Move Silently for three points (I hope no errata here... i haven´t the handbook in this moment).

At first level, characters get x4 skill points, choosing to develop four different abilities if they wish.

Maybe, wizards and clerics are the most affected for this change... Concentration, for example, is a Constitution based skill and it would cost 2 points for them (assuming wizards and clerics choose develop Intelligence and Wisdom in most cases).

What is your opinion?

Greetings and thanks in advance, Opsy.

 

[ichabod]

I think it's an interesting idea, especially since I am concerned about the problems of low int characters and prestige classes. Let's look at the class/ability skill breakdown:

Class Str   Con   Dex   Int   Wis   Cha
Barb  2     0     1     1     3     2
Bard  3     1     6     8     4     6
Cler  0     1     0     3     2     1
Drui  1     1     0     4     4     3
Figh  3     0     1     1     0     1
Monk  3     1     5     2     2     2
Pala  0     1     1     2     2     2
Rang  3     1     4     7     6     2
Rogu  3     0     8     7     6     7
Sorc  0     1     0     5     1     0
Wiza  0     1     0     5+    1     0

Now, a starting character will have maybe a 12 in Int and a 16 in their prime ability. You would expect rogues to get a big benefit out of this, but with their 8 base points, they can already max out all the dex skills. With a 12/16 split they gain 1/2 a skill point, if they stick to all dex skills. This would seem to be a problem with your system, as it lowers the number of viable choices. Most classes aren't going to get a benefit out of it, as their skills are pretty spread across the abilities. This will probably make it harder for them to gain skills. Now, they can probably work it out to about normal by rotating abilities used, but this again limits viable choices.

In short, I think there are too many potential problems to your system as is, outweighing the simulationists gains. I would suggest allowing them to spend their base points as normal, then pick any ability, and spend the modifier in points in the way you describe. That does complicate things, perhaps more than the game is worth, but it is out of play complication. A simpler solution would be to double or otherwise increase the base points. This will give points to spend on the cross-ability class skills. However, I think the benefit of the ability class skills will unbalance things: every rogue will have all dex skills maxed out, and wizards will have insane ammounts of knowledge skills.

 

[Zerakon]

I think this is a bad idea from a game balance/design perspective. If you go with your proposed rule, smarter fighters are losing their only advantage over stronger/more dextrous fighters. The fighter with lesser combat stats but a higher intelligence *should* get a skill advantage over the stronger more agile fighter. It's not only reasonable from a logical perspective but very important from a game balance perspective.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[MarauderX]

I think this is a bad idea from a game balance/design perspective. If you go with your proposed rule, smarter fighters are losing their only advantage over stronger/more dextrous fighters. The fighter with lesser combat stats but a higher intelligence *should* get a skill advantage over the stronger more agile fighter. It's not only reasonable from a logical perspective but very important from a game balance perspective.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

I can see your argument here, and although I agree on most points, I don't on others. I find that there are 'mind' skills and 'body' skills, and perhaps the skill system should be divided between them. I think Opsy is on to something with this, as I have often pondered the same thing when playing.

How does Jump increase with how intellegent you are? Knowing how to place your feet or study the mechanics of movement to improve? Nah, not with professional atheletes, they improve by practice. I don't see it as they get a "feel" for it either; using a skill like Jump is something that comes naturally, that they can do automatically without needing a brain to guide them. The brain is just along for the ride on most of the Strength skills IMO.

 

[Opsy]

I'm not agree with Zerakon... if a fighter has more Intelligence than another one, skills aren't the only adventage... he can get feats like Expertise, for example.
I think my system is most balanced precisely for fighters and paladins... if a fighter has high intelligence... well... he can choose intelligence when levels up and develop Art, Knowledge, Search or whatever he wants... and with my system they would spend the same points than with the standard system.

The point is, like MarauderX have said, the difference between 'physical' and 'mental' abilities. It's absurd a character improves his jump or climb skill using his intelligence... as would be absurd a character improves his Knowledge(Religion) using Strength.
Maybe characters could get two groups of skill points, one for physical abilities and one for mental abilities.

For example:
In standard system a fighter get 2 + Int Modifier skill points.
It we use two groups, it could be:
1 + (Str Mod + Dex Mod + Con Mod)/3 physical skill points and
1 + (Int Mod + Wis Mod + Cha Mod)/3 mental skill points.

Physical skill points can be used only in physical skills, with the costs of standard system, and mental skill points can be used only in mental skills.

What about extra skill point for humans?... uhm... maybe the player could choose in which group he wants add the extra point.

What is your opinion about this idea? maybe a bit complicated...

 

[Khaalis]

I am not sure how I feel on this idea. On one hand it seems to be logical that STR skills should go up based on your strength, and INT skills go up based on having a high intelligence.

However, the core system is not designed on this principle. It is based on the concept that your Intelligence reflects your ability and capacity to learn and futher your abilities. The reflection of the related attribute (like STR to Jump) is already reflected in the idea that you are gaining a modifier to all skill checks with those skills from that associated stat.

For Example, a Fighter with an 18 STR and 2 Ranks in Jump gets a +6 to all Jump rolls already.

Also keep in mind that MOST stats have a game balance "necessity" to them. If you take away Skill Points from INT - you end up making INT as useless as CHA when looking at game balancing factors such as a stat's secondary use other than how it grants a bonus to a related skill.

STR = Carry Capacity & Attack and Damage Bonus
DEX = AC & Reflex Saves
CON = HP & Fortitude Saves
INT = Skill Points
WIS = Will Saves
CHA = N/A (A few classes have CHA based abilities like Turning)

The real problem I have with your system idea is the potential abuse, especially with classes that have a predominant number of class skills associated to one Stat - like Rogues. A Rogue already gains 8+INT per level, which means most Rogues NEED to place some attribute points into INT. However if you let them gain bonus skill points from DEX, then every Rogue will have an 18+ DEX and more skill points than they know what to do with since a vast majority of their skills are DEX based.

If your idea comes specifically from Fighters not having enough points, you could always increase the Skill Point Allotment. In our campaign we house ruled all class skill alotments because we found that as you rise in level, the DC's for what you need to do become unattainable with the skill points as they are, unless everyone in the world has at least a 14 INT, which is just unrealistic. Fighters went to a 4+INT for example. We also re-evaluated Wizards. They are supposed to be the scholars and the masters of lore yet they only get 2 Skill Points? Hmm...


Anyway, just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Without doing some math, my gut instinct is that your system will end up causing some issues of game balance, as very few Classes will every need to bother with Intelligence any more.

 

[ichabod]

The real problem I have with your system idea is the potential abuse, especially with classes that have a predominant number of class skills associated to one Stat - like Rogues. A Rogue already gains 8+INT per level, which means most Rogues NEED to place some attribute points into INT. However if you let them gain bonus skill points from DEX, then every Rogue will have an 18+ DEX and more skill points than they know what to do with since a vast majority of their skills are DEX based.

While you do have some points, only 25.8% of the rogue skills are dex based.

 

[Khaalis]

While you do have some points, only 25.8% of the rogue skills are dex based.

Ok true, looked at that way its actually as follows, which does show that the Predominant stat is DEX.

STR: 9.7% (3 of 31)
DEX: 25.8% (8 of 31)
INT: 22.6% (7 of 31)
WIS: 19.3% (6 of 31)
CHA: 22.6% (7 of 31)

Granted depending on the type of Rogue you are going after, some of the skills in each Stat will become useless. Not all rogues take all skills (you just can't).

However, the potential for abuse is still there. If the Rogue has an 18 DEX and a 12 INT, he will always be better off to "advance" DEX and get the 12 points that 4 points "must" go to DEX skills, rather than to getting a mere 9 points when more than likely 4 of those points will go into DEX skills anyway.


Another Example: Fighter
STR: 50% (3 of 6)
DEX: 16.6% (1 of 6)
INT: 16.6% (1 of 6)
CHA: 16.6% (1 of 6)

If the Fighter has an 18 STR and a 12 INT, he will always be better off to "advance" STR and get the 6 points that 4 "must" go to STR skills, rather than to getting a mere 3 points when more than likely all 3 of those points will go into STR skills anyway.


Just think it could be badly abused is all, and it lowers the need for Intelligence as a "good" ability stat for most anyone other than caster classes. A dumb fighter should still be a dumb fighter. They shouldnt be able to progress in their learning just because they have an 18 STR but a 10 INT.

Case point: Who do you think would be a better rockclimber? Someone who knows how to best place the pinions and how to lead their rope and tie the correct knots and find the better hand and foot holds so as not to find eroded rock etc? Or someone who tries to bully there way up the side of the rock using nothing but muscle? In RL guy number 2 is the guy they scrape off the rock 200' below. Just a short analogy to show the idea that intelligence is still a factor even in the most physical of "skills".


Side note: Besides in the game mechanic it ends up balancing anyway:
The Rogue with a STR 12 and 4 Ranks in Climb = +5 climb
The Fighter with a STR 18 and 1 Rank in Climb = +5 climb

 

[MarauderX]

Anyway, just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Without doing some math, my gut instinct is that your system will end up causing some issues of game balance, as very few Classes will every need to bother with Intelligence any more.

I think that's the idea... getting rid of the need to be smarter for certain skills. I would judge not to give a number of skill points equal to the ability modifier per level, as it could quickly get out of control as far as balance.

Would I would propose is being limited to spending physical skill points on the physical skills, and use the old system for the mental skills. Have it be so that Str or Dex or Con is the deciding factor for a number of physical skill points, similar to Int for regular skill points, and have a character spend them how they wish that way. Perhaps they don't get more physical points after 1st level, that they only get to spend them once unless they gain more bonuses due to higher attributes. Or take away the ability modifiers that each skill has, and make the PC spend a greater pool of skill points to be at maximum. I wish I had time to work out a system... one of these days...

 

[sinmissing]

I think this system is very cool. I am going to use this idea.