Alternative Turning Mechanic, part 2

[Nail]

I'm still playing with this. In part, I'd like the turning mechanic to be de-powered, but broadened. Using core rules, turning is a one-dimensional mechanic, only useful against one type of creature...and against that type, it's blindingly useful. Even required. Bleh.

So my core idea is to change the power to "Divine Chanelling", and allow the cleric bonus feats to decide how to use that power. Much like the wizard, I'd start the cleric out with one bonus feat at first level, then one more feat every 5th level. The core mechanic would be that the cleric sets the DC to resist whatever the effect is by: DC = 10 + 1/2 Clr lvl + Cha

Some of the feats would be, in summary:

Keep at Bay: UD must succeed at a Will save to get closer than 10 to the cleric, or melee attack anyone within that radius. Lasts 1 minute per level.

Turn/Rebuke UD: 30' cone, otherwise the same effect as present. Lasts 1 round per level. The mechanic, OTOH, would be a Will save for each UD affected, and no chance to destroy/command. That's another feat.

Destroy/Command UD: As Turn/Rebuke above, except that the cleric may either destroy (good) or command (evil). Prereq of Turn or Rebuke, of course. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

Castigate UD: 30' radius burst, Will save or -1 to all attacks, saves, and skill checks. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

.....and there would be other feats, not UD specific, like "Sacred Summoning", "Divine Smite", "Sacred Vision", etc.

The trick, as I see it, is to not duplicate existing Cleric spells, and yet allow the cleric the option of building a non-standard cleric.

 

[Nail]

BTW, I've run the numbers for DC vs UD Will save for all of the UD in the MM. Setting the DC in this way gives an UD of Average Party Level (APL = UD CR) about a 50% chance to make a Will save.

And of course, there will be feats that allow the cleric a way of boosting that DC.....

 

[Gina]

I'm still playing with this. In part, I'd like the turning mechanic to be de-powered, but broadened. Using core rules, turning is a one-dimensional mechanic, only useful against one type of creature...and against that type, it's blindingly useful. Even required. Bleh.

So my core idea is to change the power to "Divine Chanelling", and allow the cleric bonus feats to decide how to use that power. Much like the wizard, I'd start the cleric out with one bonus feat at first level, then one more feat every 5th level. The core mechanic would be that the cleric sets the DC to resist whatever the effect is by: DC = 10 + 1/2 Clr lvl + Cha

Some of the feats would be, in summary:

Keep at Bay: UD must succeed at a Will save to get closer than 10 to the cleric, or melee attack anyone within that radius. Lasts 1 minute per level.

Turn/Rebuke UD: 30' cone, otherwise the same effect as present. Lasts 1 round per level. The mechanic, OTOH, would be a Will save for each UD affected, and no chance to destroy/command. That's another feat.

Destroy/Command UD: As Turn/Rebuke above, except that the cleric may either destroy (good) or command (evil). Prereq of Turn or Rebuke, of course. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

Castigate UD: 30' radius burst, Will save or -1 to all attacks, saves, and skill checks. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

.....and there would be other feats, not UD specific, like "Sacred Summoning", "Divine Smite", "Sacred Vision", etc.

The trick, as I see it, is to not duplicate existing Cleric spells, and yet allow the cleric the option of building a non-standard cleric.

If these can be obtained through bonus feats for the cleric, then it seems like it would work. If the cleric would have to use his/her usual feat slots, it would be exceedingly burdensome.

Just my not so expert opinion.

Gina

 

[Videssian]

I'm still playing with this. In part, I'd like the turning mechanic to be de-powered, but broadened. Using core rules, turning is a one-dimensional mechanic, only useful against one type of creature...and against that type, it's blindingly useful. Even required. Bleh.

So my core idea is to change the power to "Divine Chanelling", and allow the cleric bonus feats to decide how to use that power. Much like the wizard, I'd start the cleric out with one bonus feat at first level, then one more feat every 5th level. The core mechanic would be that the cleric sets the DC to resist whatever the effect is by: DC = 10 + 1/2 Clr lvl + Cha

Some of the feats would be, in summary:

Keep at Bay: UD must succeed at a Will save to get closer than 10 to the cleric, or melee attack anyone within that radius. Lasts 1 minute per level.

Turn/Rebuke UD: 30' cone, otherwise the same effect as present. Lasts 1 round per level. The mechanic, OTOH, would be a Will save for each UD affected, and no chance to destroy/command. That's another feat.

Destroy/Command UD: As Turn/Rebuke above, except that the cleric may either destroy (good) or command (evil). Prereq of Turn or Rebuke, of course. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

Castigate UD: 30' radius burst, Will save or -1 to all attacks, saves, and skill checks. Only one attempt on any given UD per 24 hour period.

.....and there would be other feats, not UD specific, like "Sacred Summoning", "Divine Smite", "Sacred Vision", etc.

The trick, as I see it, is to not duplicate existing Cleric spells, and yet allow the cleric the option of building a non-standard cleric.

I personally don't have a problem with turning as it stands; clerics are supposed to be very competent against undead, and that's been the case since 1e. (and if anything, it's weaker in 3e since they can't turn outsiders now).

Bear in mind that the undead aren't exactly helpless (unless weak, corporeal AND cornered). They will flee to the 60' range and then they can function normally. Many (if intelligent) will have measures in place to resist turning, and evil clerics (which will have created much of the undead) can make a big difference also.

In short, I don't think it needs to be changed, though I'm open to arguments for a change..

 

[ciaran00]

What about using spell slots to power turning/rebuking (making it better)? I was thinking about that...

ciaran

 

[Nail]

Bear in mind that the undead aren't exactly helpless (unless weak, corporeal AND cornered). They will flee to the 60' range and then they can function normally.

Errrr....sorry, but that's incorrect. The UD will continue to flee for 10 rounds. If, at any point during that time, they are cornered, they will cower.

IOW, turned UD are "effectively" helpless. And you can bet yer bottom dollar that my cleric will always position himself so that turned undead will be cornered, so that the rest of you can beat on 'em while they cower (-2 AC, can't attack, lose Dex bonus).

...And lets not even talk about those UD that I will destroy. At present, as a 7th level cleric of the Sun, I can destroy any UD of 8 HD or less, and if I'm lucky, that goes up to 12 HD. Destroy. Turn to dust. Instantly make into little cute puffs of ectoplasmic vapor.

Many (if intelligent) will have measures in place to resist turning, and evil clerics (which will have created much of the undead) can make a big difference also.

True,...but PCs can prepare too!

But really, that's not my point with this potential change. I'm looking for less of an "all or nothing" approach, as well as looking for ways for clerics to be something other than UD-turning machines.

Is that a good idea?