Alternative Turning Mechanic

[Yair]

sorry, my computer got weird just before it booted me out...

 

[Yair]

.....Arrrgggg.....

 

[Yair]

Using just the monsters from the MM 3.5e, the chance to successfully save vs. the turning is, on average, 57%.

Interesting. I presume the variation from this is not too great, in most cases?

A cleric determined to do so can increase his Cha beyond your assumptions, but they seem sound to me nonetheless.

Hmmm. So it seems the 10 + 1/2 Clr lvl + Cha is working after all. Thanks Nail

 

[FrankTrollman]

Look at the assumptions though:

A +3 Charisma bonus rising linearly by +1 per three levels. Meaning that the DC is rising by +5 per six levels - almost perfectly linearly with level. But Charisma doesn't rise like that! Especially not for a Cleric. Their primary attribute is and always will be Wisdom, so in most games they are lucky if they can afford a 15 for their starting Charisma - and statistics simply don't rise linearly, they jump in leaps when new bonuses are gained. And it's simply not realistic to expect a primary divine caster to be putting stat raises into Charisma to increase the DC of their turning when they could just put the same stat increase into Wisdom and increase the DC of Flamestrike and get more spells.

With the +1 DC per two levels and +1 DC per Charisma modifier you've essentially taken Turning away from Clerics altogether and given it instead to paladins. A Paladin turns as a Cleric only 2 levels lower - which in this proposed system is only a -1 to DC. But Charisma is their primary attribute. They are almost guaranteed to put their best stat into Charisma - instead of their second (or fourth) best stat.

So the Paladin gets 1 less DC from level, but gets 1 or 2 more DC from starting with a higher Charisma. As the characters go up in level, the Paladin is going to be investing more in Charisma, and thus his statistic is going to be rising faster than the Cleric's is - so the Paladin is always going to be ahead.

And since the Paladin is ahead anyway, the Paladin is going to get all the turning bonus gear - and the Cleric isn't going to need to bother with Turning - and thus with his charisma - at all.

-Frank

 

[Yair]

Look at the assumptions though:

A +3 Charisma bonus rising linearly by +1 per three levels. Meaning that the DC is rising by +5 per six levels - almost perfectly linearly with level.

Huh? You mean perhaps Cha rise by +4 per six levels?
I agree this is a bit fast, however (I misread it originally as +1 to Cha per three levels ).

With the +1 DC per two levels and +1 DC per Charisma modifier you've essentially taken Turning away from Clerics altogether and given it instead to paladins. ... So the Paladin gets 1 less DC from level, but gets 1 or 2 more DC from starting with a higher Charisma. As the characters go up in level, the Paladin is going to be investing more in Charisma, and thus his statistic is going to be rising faster than the Cleric's is - so the Paladin is always going to be ahead.

Good point. (Except the paladin turns as 3 levels lower in 3.5.) Although as long as Cha is a factor, at some level the paladin will likely meet and even exceed the cleric, for the very same reason - he will pump up Cha, whereas the cleric will not.
Under, say, 1d20 + Clr level + 1/2 Cha, a paladin is at -3 due to level, but this could be offset by having a Cha +6 higher. Granted, many times the paladin will not have +6 above the resident cleric, but many times he would. So the paladin can already reasonably meet or exceed the cleric at turning, albeit later. (With 1d20 + 1/2 Clr level + Cha he is at -2 initially, which is offset at +4 Cha; with 1d20 + Clr level + Cha he is at -3 initially, which is offset at +6 Cha - so the difference between the mechanics is not high.)

 

[FrankTrollman]

Huh? You mean perhaps Cha rise by +4 per six levels?

No, I meant +5 to the DC in 6 levels.

In six levels, he's expecting you to get +3 DC from level. He's also expecting the Charisma to go up by +4, which nets you an additional +2 DC.

So every 6 levels, DC goes up by 5. And the character doesn't really start to fall behind the curve until quite high level.

But with those unrealistic assumptions, you've essentially just set the DC to Level. In reality, most Clerics are not going to be able to gain 24 charisma in 18 levels - which means that they are falling behind these projections.

But you know what doesn't fall behind projections? Just using the character's Level straight up with no reduction or Charisma modification at all. You'll note - the unrealistic assumptions assumed that in at 19th level you'd have a DC of 28. Why not just use level straight up and have a DC of 29?

Those projections required insane levels of stat growth to stay balanced... why not eliminate the middle man?

-Frank

 

[Yair]

No, I meant +5 to the DC in 6 levels.

In six levels, he's expecting you to get +3 DC from level. He's also expecting the Charisma to go up by +4, which nets you an additional +2 DC.

Gotcha.

Those projections required insane levels of stat growth to stay balanced... why not eliminate the middle man?

Because the straight-cleric-level, although it is the most balanced, does not take Cha into account. And that makes the cleric a duller class.

Nail: could you perhaps run the excel sheet with a Cha bonus growth of, say, +1 per 5 levels? That sounds more reasonable to me.

 

[AeroDm]

FrankT- I think part of the point that you are missing is that people are trying to make a mechanic that feels d20, works smoothly, requires no tables, and has 'flavor' (ie- makes cha important). Although perhaps your math is stronger, it isnt as desireable with your non-d20-esque nature.

I'd rather have a system that is slightly better than the original and will -be used- than a mechanic that is quite accurate and is ignored because it is akward and clumsly.

 

[AeroDm]

On a totally different note-

What if instead of turning and destroying undead, the turn check caused status affects. For instance, what if a normal turn success caused the undead to become shaken (even though they are immune to shaken iirc). A turn success where the undead would have been destroyed causes them to flee.

Turn Undead currently is rather anti-climactic. You roll the die, they flee, you chase down and murder. By just giving the undead rather severe penalties (shaken) they can still fight but are less affective, so you get a rhomp where a threat still exists. If you succeed by a lot (they would have normally been destroyed) they flee and you get to chase them down and kill them.

This weaken turning quite a bit, but also adds a better flavor imo. Likewise, because it weakens turning in general we could give a higher chance to succeed, thus using the full cleric level instead of 1/2.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I just don't see the Charisma Mod as being unimportant - it determines how often you can do it in a day. Now, currently the rules are that you get 3 + Cha modifier per day - which means people never run out. In fact, the only reason people take Extra Turning is to get 4 extra greater turnings or to qualify for feats and prestige classes.

But if you could only do it once or even never without a Charisma mod - you'd see people caring about their Charisma modifier a lot more. he current problem is that since all Clerics have more turning attempts than they need - the bonus turning attempts aren't worth anything. If the default was less turning attempts than you need - it would suddenly matter a lot more.

I don't think we should encourage or require massive stat inflation. Jozan has a Charisma of what, 19 at level 20?

What if instead of turning and destroying undead, the turn check caused status affects. For instance, what if a normal turn success caused the undead to become shaken (even though they are immune to shaken iirc). A turn success where the undead would have been destroyed causes them to flee.

People wouldn't even bother to use Turn Undead under those circumstances. Undead don't have that many hit points, and every time a 3rd level Cleric is Turning he could be casting Knife Spray.

However, I would like to see more graduation in effect. Perhaps DC 15 + Level and:

Fail save: Shaken
Fail by more than 5: Shaken, Turned.
Fail by more than 10: Shaken, Turned, Staggered.
Fail by more than 15: Destroyed.

And Evil Clerics could have something similar:

Fail save: Shaken
Fail by more than 5: Shaken, Rebuked.
Fail by more than 10: Charmed.
Fail by more than 15: Commanded.

Or something along those lines. Make turning a bit more exciting. It does has the problem of being more like Blasphemy and Holy Word, however.

-Frank