Alternatives to Loremaster class

It wasn't the spells - he just didn't like the secrets! I think he'd rather have things which fit his concept of knowledge in other ways - maybe something like special knowledge of creature's weaknesses or something, rather than combat bonuses. The character has a very nose-in-a-book concept and he didn't think the Loremaster had enough "Lore." Personally, I like the bard-style knowledge and the feat every other level option but he wasn't quite satisfied.

I don't have Complete Champion (yet?) - what's a Paragnostic Apostle? Sounds rather divine-y..?
 

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Loremaster isn't quite a feat every other level - you can't take the same secret more than once, so you can only take Applicable Knowledge once. Some of the other secrets are pretty nice too, though.

Anyway, Paragnostic Apostle is definitely worth a look. It's a five-level class with entry requirements easily met by any character who wants to play that role (K: Religion, Arcana and any one other Knowledge at 5 ranks each, cast 3rd level spells, membership in the organization) giving full spell progression, d4 HP, 4 skill points per level, and more importantly every level the class grants a special ability from a predefined list. The special abilities all require a certain number of ranks in a given knowledge skill, and are minor boosts to spellcasting that are generally freely usable. They're somewhat weaker than feats, at least in my opinion, but of course you get one every level. For example, there's one that grants your summoned creatures Fast Healing 2. Or one that grants a +1 to hit with any ray attack against a creature with a natural armor bonus.

The class also grants Lore/Bardic Knowledge, with levels in the class counting double. Or, according to a plausible but clearly broken reading of the text, all levels in any lore-granting class counting double.

Flavor-wise, it requires membership in the Paragnostic Assembly, which is an organization closely associated with the Church of Boccob. It does require some minimal amount of religious affiliation, but Boccob's church is described as being interested in knowledge more than in devotion. Higher ranks of the organization require a somewhat onerous tithe, but there's no real need to advance formally if you don't want to.

The class works for clerics as well as wizards - it grants continued turn undead progression, although it doesn't grant the ability if you didn't have it to begin with - but the d4 hit die pushes it a bit more towards wizards.

Complete Champion also has the Knowledge Devotion feat, which sounds like something else the player might be interested in - it allows you to gain insight bonuses to attack and damage rolls based on how well you roll on a Knowledge check to identify a creature. Freely usable, and if you can get your Knowledge results up past 35 it's a +5 bonus. The bonuses aren't restricted to melee attacks or weapon attacks, so they'll boost spell damage as well.

As another possibility - is this for an existing character? If not, has the player looked at the Archivist? It's a divine spellcaster that uses a spellbook, but more importantly the Dark Knowledge class ability sounds like the kind of special knowledge the player is looking for. It's in Heroes of Horror, but it's also available as a free preview on the Wizards web site:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3

There are feats in Heroes of Horror to expand the types of creature the ability works on.
 

They both sound pretty sweet. I'll have to go flick through Champion in the shop tomorrow - I was only going to pick up the Bo9S but hey, it's payday!

Thanks very much guys!
 

If it's not too late...

Lost Empires of Faerun has the olin gisir PrC; it's kind of like an elf-variant loremaster.
Races of Destiny I think has a loremaster-type PrC for the new race in it as well.
 

Not too late at all - I won't see him til next week anyway, and even then I believe he's still planning. Thanks very much - I know he's got Lost Empires somewhere since his character is a Mulhorandi with the Godsight and Multilingual feats.

So thanks, mate!
 

carborundum said:
Not too late at all - I won't see him til next week anyway, and even then I believe he's still planning. Thanks very much - I know he's got Lost Empires somewhere since his character is a Mulhorandi with the Godsight and Multilingual feats.

So thanks, mate!
I checked RoD for that PrC; it's called the loredelver, & is a bit of an arcane/rogue multiclass (it requires the trapfinding class feature & some ranks in some non-wizard skills, but grants 6 skill pts/level & some nifty abilities).
 

If he goes with loremaster, he could pick up secrets like this (assuming a +4 INT mod):

L1 - Bonus to Fort Save (not dying is good), or Ref save (if taking Divine Oracle later)
L3 - Bonus to another save
L5 - Applicable Knowledge - There's a feat (complete mage, perhaps?) that gives you combat bonuses for making a knowledge check about a foe. Seems totally appropriate.
L7 - Extra 2nd Level spell
L9 - Dodge bonus to AC?

He also gets extra SP, two bonus languages, and all the Lore stuff... Perhaps pointing out the knowledge-related feat will make him reconsider?

Loremaster is a solid PrC, and its GREAT for knowledge oriented characters. Although, it is handy that the prereqs overlap quite handily with Divine Oracle.
 

I have a level 10 character with a very solid amount of knowledge. I have a +13 synergy, 7 modifier and ranks of course in 13 different kind of knowledge.

Our DM allows nearly any kind of book, like ultimate feat, forgotten realms with normal D&D and so on.

I have 5 levels of wizard.

I took the academic variant from The Quintessential Wizard -> basicly you only need to spend half the rank to get full rank in knowledge. For example you only use 2,5 skill points to get 5 ranks etc. In addition you get skill focus in one knowledge. There is also some penalties.

I also took the changeling variant from The Quintessential Elf -> It grants you more skill points and a feat, but you will probably use it on iron will because one of the penalties is -2 to will.

I also took 'absent-minded' frm UA or PHBII which grants you +1 to knowledge and -1 to spot and listen.

I have taken the feat University (8 skill points first level and 2 points every level - you may need to speak with your DM about this, since it grants you a lot of skill points, however my DM accepted it because it did fit my background).

Another feat which only works for elves over 200 year old, is a feat from ultimate feat and is called 'elven knowledge' or something like that grants you another 2 synergy to knowledge.

thereafter a level of dragonfire adept and took the least invocation knowledge I think it was called which grants you +6 invocation knowledge and spellcraft.

This class gives you the feat dragontouched which allows you to take a draconic aura feat, where one of them is called isnigt and grants you +2 knowledge and to everyone in a 30 ft radius.

I did take Incantatrix because of some background issues, however you could take a level or two the one of the harper Prc from 'Magic in Fauron' - forgotten realms.

My character has a total knowledge between 28 to 34 in level 10.
 

If you don't discard house rules, consider a variant Loremaster with the Archivist's Dark Knowledge (from heroes of horror) instead of Secrets.
 


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