Am I being mean?

[Uller]

Uller, let me say at first that I like your players.

I like them too. I just worry that sometimes my style of gaming doesn't always match all of theirs (which is natural...all groups seem to have that trouble).

I would think about removing one rogue level from the goblin though to avoid killing one player with one good attack while the others may perchance survive without getting hit too bad.

Maybe. But I was thinking. A Cleric 6 (Trickery and Destruction) could deliver an Inflict Serious Wounds that does an average of 19.5 (or 24.5 with Smite) damage and wouldn't need to use Sneak Attack to do it. This character, using Inflict Moderate wounds (his toughest spell) can do 19 (22 with Smite) on average but needs it to be a sneak attack. So it balances out I think...it isn't like some massive smack down now that I think about it.

How are the PCs hitpoints?

They're above average for the most part (the Fighter/Cleric has 40...the lowest one is the rogue that has 17). So I don't think this NPC could kill any of them outright unless they were wounded first (which would be his strategy...let his minions wound them then move in for the kill).

Protection from Evil/Good and Shield of Faith will not stack. Looks like you're using 3.0.

Yep. But even in 3.0 they are both a deflection bonus...my bad. Thanks!

Guess that Periapt of Wisdom +2 is a present for the Ftr/Clr ? It will help him with his level 2 spells...

Heh! Yes and not really at once! I gave the NPC that because I wanted to give him a magic item other than magic armor and a magic weapon. So this seemed interesting. The Ftr/Clr's wisdom didn't really occur to me at the time (at least not conciously). It certainly would benefit him and (assuming he keeps his fighter and cleric levels equal) should keep him able to cast his best spells up through 12th level.

However, he and I had a long arguement about spells like Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor. He railed against the notion of using magic to boost a character's wis, int or cha scores (I can't explain his POV as I still don't understand it). So I don't think he'd even like it. Plus his character destroyed a suit of +1 Scale Mail because it was "unclean" or something. I didn't really get that either...the campaign world is a standard magic level world where magic items are a pretty common thing...but whatever, I'm not going to tell him how to play his character. I did try to explain to him that his god doesn't demand that magic items be destroyed unless they are evil and that the scale mail armor was just as likely from a good source and stolen as from an evil source, but he didn't care...So he may destroy the periapt of Wisdom anyway since it is being worn by a goblin cleric to an evil god (which will just make me laugh).

 

[Mark]

However, he and I had a long arguement about spells like Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor. He railed against the notion of using magic to boost a character's wis, int or cha scores (I can't explain his POV as I still don't understand it). So I don't think he'd even like it. Plus his character destroyed a suit of +1 Scale Mail because it was "unclean" or something. I didn't really get that either...the campaign world is a standard magic level world where magic items are a pretty common thing...but whatever, I'm not going to tell him how to play his character. I did try to explain to him that his god doesn't demand that magic items be destroyed unless they are evil and that the scale mail armor was just as likely from a good source and stolen as from an evil source, but he didn't care...So he may destroy the periapt of Wisdom anyway since it is being worn by a goblin cleric to an evil god (which will just make me laugh).

Players who decide how to play their characters despite how the world works or in an effort to shape how you run your world, if either of those are what he is doing, can be a pain. It's not out of line to let him know he is welcome to play it anyway he wants, but that not only doesn't everyone in the world share his view but also that his temple superiors (and possibly his god) find his practices wasteful, counter to the interests of the temple, and call into question his ability to properly represent them.

Any time he destroys a potential resource for the cause of his god (and presumably himself) then a temple superior (and, again, possibly his god) should make it known that he's not following the wishes of the temple but rather his own perversion of it.

While I wouldn't personally (as DM) disallow him from continuing to do what he does, I'd certainly suggest that there are consequences...and then, if he continues on his course of action, begin to show him what those consequences are.

There are many ways to get the message across, not the least of which are ostracizing him from the temple completely or (from the top) restricting his ability to draw on divine magic. Hopefully it won't come to this, and these options can be used only as a last resort.

A more tempered response might be for it to get around among other members of the clergy that he is a bit of a loose cannon. Be sure to make some strict choices about how this view spreads and how far, and to set some time plateaus for allowing this view to spread beyond the members of his sect. If there are other members of his party that also follow the same god someone from his temple might approach them and ask them to intervene before he destroys some other useful items.

Members of his sect may make a point of suggesting some sort of rituals (that perhaps include bless spells) to "cleanse" items that the Ftr/Clr deems "unclean" for whatever reason. They might require that he tithe the temple in kind for the value of anything he destroys that really need not be destroyed.

Be sure to leave him options, like disavowing himself from his temple and perhaps from his god if he feels he is being strongarmed, politicizing his views in a effort to change the ways of his temple, etc. Just let him know that you aren't making his choices for him, you are just allowing NPCs to react to his behavior he can certainly go on doing whatever he wishes to choose to do.

Anyway, that might be one way to handle it based on the limited information available in this thread and, what I gather is, your reaction to how the Ftr/Clr's choices seem to be hampering the power level of the party.

 

[Uller]

While I wouldn't personally (as DM) disallow him from continuing to do what he does, I'd certainly suggest that there are consequences...and then, if he continues on his course of action, begin to show him what those consequences are.

I've already told him that. I explained to him that a) Magic items are a resource I put into the game for the PCs to use. Destroying resources will impact the ablity of the party to overcome obstacles. And B) there's never been any directive from his god to destroy magic willy nilly. But if he wants to and the rest of the party won't stop him, then so be it.

Anyway, that might be one way to handle it based on the limited information available in this thread and, what I gather is, your reaction to how the Ftr/Clr's choices seem to be hampering the power level of the party.

A little perspective on his RP reasoning: He is a barbarian (not the class...his people are uncivilized). The people of the Seven Nations are worshippers of nature spirits. Their spiritual leaders tend to be Druids and Sorcerers. As often as not, these "spirits" are actually demonic beings who try to bend the Seven Nations to their will. The civilized peoples tend to see these spirit worshippers as demon worshippers (because sometimes it is true). This character converted to the worship of a civilized god in order to survive a plague. So from this player's POV, magic items created by the barbarians have potentially been created by demon worshipping shaman and have infernal magic as the source of their power. I'm completely fine with that POV (even if it isn't necessarily true in the game world).

In the specific case of when he destroyed a magic item, it was a suit of +1 Scale Mail that the party had looted from a barbarian warrior they had defeated. The ftr/clr decided that it was likely created by a barbarian shaman and therefore it was possibly demonic. I pointed out to him that more than likely it was stolen or purchased from more civilized people because the barbarians lack the technology to make decent metal armors. He destroyed it anyway. Maybe he is just playing that average Wisdom out...a character with an 11 wisdom might have difficulty thinking critically.

It's just a difference in styles. We've been gaming together for well over 15 years now...so it isn't like we can't work around it...we always have. I can list several more "differences we have: For example, when he DMs, an Important NPC like a general or king is likely to be a "zero-level" character (he has maintained a few AD&D concepts like that) where in my game, NPC level is determined by his importance in the world...so the leader of a goblin warclan with 40+ members is a 6th level character. He'd probably just make him a charasmatic normal goblin and surround him with tough minions. In one of the games he DM'd at 2nd level we assassinated an emperor...in my game that emperor would have been a 15th level aristocrat or something. Again...just a difference in styles.

 

[Tessarael]

Fighter2/cleric2 [..]
Rogue1/Diviner 3

These characters can be quite effective in my opinion. If you want to give the Fighter 2/Cleric 2
some long term options, consider Unearthed Arcana and the Paladin as a prestige class (and if he's not LG, you could do the same for one of the Paladin variants they present in Unearthed Arcana). This character should be good in combat. Fairly soon, the character should find or buy a +2 Wisdom bonus item. That will help in the Cleric department, but with Wis 11, Cleric spells are never going to be the main offensive tactic - whacking the enemy will be.

Rogue/Diviner is a good build for scouting. Sneak around with a Detect Evil/Detect Undead/etc ... spell going and find the enemies before they find you. Discovering an encounter is great because it prevents an ambush, and can sometimes allow you to ambush the bad guys. And the Diviner should still have some buffing spells or combat spells left over after the divinations.

While the players aren't min/max, these characters could be quite effective. If you feel that things are getting tough, give them some help developing their characters in a stronger direction (e.g. spells for the Diviner, prestige class for the Fighter/Cleric).

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Dreaddisease]

TPK. Not guaranteed but expected. 2 levels above a non min-maxed party and then you add in the probability of multiple combats added to the BBEG, and that s a receipe for disaster.

We used to have one min-maxer in our party and the rest of us were just playing and learning the game and having fun. Once we started battling EL of 2 above us we all buckled down to a Min/maxing group. I am not saying that your group will do this but players often reflect what the DM does. If you have really tough maxed out enemies then expect a reaction from your players to do the same. Now if you have a deep character with quirks and doesn't have all the perfect magical items and has weaknesses that can be discovered and utilized by your players, then your players will allow their characters to do the same.

Just the matter of environment, adapt or die.

 

[Uller]

TPK. Not guaranteed but expected. 2 levels above a non min-maxed party and then you add in the probability of multiple combats added to the BBEG, and that s a receipe for disaster.

I don't think we're at risk of TPK really. Maybe just one or two PCs...

As long as I've been DMing I've always had BBEGs 1-3 levels above the party. It's never been a problem really. Having the BBEG be equal or lower level than the PCs has always seemed kind of weak to me.

Keep in mind there are 6 members in the party so effectively they are a fifth level party (if you use the same formula for parties as encounters...double the numbers increases EL by 2...obviously this isn't always true once you start throwing in immunities, DR and SR, but that's not the case here). Plus they'll have 4 War1 henchmen to help out.

Also keep in mind they don't have to KILL the BBEG. They just have to capture the BBEG or one of his LTs (preferably alive). They could even make multiple forays (although subsequent ones will be tougher). The party consists of a Rog4, Rgr4, Ftr2/Cl2, Rog1/Div3, Brb3/Src1 and a second Rgr4...so they are very well suited to stealth. The goblin lair is a ravine with a bunch of caves, each cave is occupied by 10-15 War1 goblins and a 3rd level lieutenant goblin (and some other things). There are sentries at each cave mouth and occasional patrols through the ravine.

Now if the party decides on the frontal assault on the goblin lair...they'll be in for it. ~50 goblins, 3 worgs and two ogres! And if things go badly for the goblins they'll release an Ettin they have imprisoned in one of the caves. Now that would be a TPK! But they'll be made aware of that risk.

 

[Urizen]

hmm. I wonder what the challenge rating would be for Dreknar.

Mind if I use him?

I'm running a similar adventure and need a nice NPC.

 

[Uller]

Technically he's CR 6...but I've never really thought of CR as exactly equal to character level. Compare to your typical CR 6 creature: Annis, 7-headed Hydra or a Wyvern. I don't think this guy comes close to one of those. Even Ettins and Trolls are far more of a threat than this l'il ol' goblin!

Edit: ...and of course I don't mind you using him. Why would I? But you'll need to switch out eithe Prot from Good or Shield of Faith from his 1st level spells since they don't stack. Maybe Bane would work well.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

Actually, assuming this party uses good tactics, I think they will annhilate most threats they face at this level. With that much stealth and hitting power, they can dictate the first strike and flow of combat completely. It really comes down to player skill and teamwork for a party like this, and given what you've said about this group, I doubt this Goblin will pose any major threat.

 

[Duenta]

Alot of DMs would be happy to have players who didnt min max i for one would be greatful if for once my players would do something other than play an annoying rouge a self rightious fighter a bookworm wizard oh and the psionic warrior half orc (ill explane to those who want to know) dont get me wrong i love the basic classes and thier falts and powers its just the players (ie the rouge pick pockiting for everyone around him including his party members no hes not a kinder) maybe im just a jaded DM whos been DMing for to long but i find it good ever so often to out and out kill the players. dont hold back after a certain level i dont hold back my players know this thats why they find themselves infront of Jakar more often then not by 6th level (Ill explane to those who want to know what a Jakar is) it will drain magic users of thier power rob artifacts of thier abilitys and then kill everything in the path it so chooses to go. nasty buggers. but then these are my players and my games and they understand my and thats the friendship we have and enjoy. as an answer for you no your not being mean your players should know you by now as should your players know you, let them know that your not going to hold back at whatever level and if they want to make a partyfull of characters who cant hack and slash or puzzel solve or whatever your style is then well they better learn.


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The dagger plunged deep into the drows chest "School is in session, there are no free rides here boys."