Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8152430" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>You can speed it up, but it requires buy-in from everyone--DM included. Using the Monster Manual 3 stats (which are lower-HP, lower-defense, higher-damage), relying on minions, keeping limits on conditions that excessively complicate matters, etc. On the player side, having prewritten power cards, ALWAYS paying attention even on other players' turns, and tracking turn order and conditional effects as simply and accurately as possible. (A whiteboard is actually very helpful here, along with either colored bands, colored tokens, or magnetic tokens to stick to the white board.)</p><p></p><p>Been thinking about how to do 4e-ified simple combats too--probably riffing off the Skill Challenge rules--but I haven't done any concrete work yet. If that's of interest, I'll look into it. And on the subject of Skill Challenges, I have some significant advice that...doesn't technically <em>contradict</em> the SC rules, but rather expands beyond them to make them much more enjoyable than if played precisely by-the-book (which can make them feel REALLY stilted and mechanistic.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, some amount of "options" and "builds" is unavoidable because even the books use the term "build," and part of the tactical combat resides in which choices you make at the (for lack of a better term) "strategic" level. If you want to keep that "strategic" level while cutting down on the chaff, I honestly do suggest the various class guide threads you can find here on ENWorld. Not to be super-duper optimized, but because they cut through ALL the crappy chaff BS and get to the good stuff.</p><p></p><p>If you dislike it so much that you'd really rather avoid ALL of it, the "Essentials-style" classes are a halfway decent way to cut down on options, but even there there's still going to be feats and <em>some</em> building of a character (e.g. there are two Cavalier Virtues to choose from). Not all classes <em>got</em> an Essentials-style writeup though, e.g. there is only the "original" Warlord, an emblematic class.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, MM3 stats generally work pretty well for this, but if you want to take it further, this might work. The only problem will be that that's what crits already do (plus some rolled extra dice), so you'll want to make a new rule for crits. Double max damage <em>could</em> work, but it will make PCs hit really REALLY hard. The other side of this is that fistful-of-small-dice attacks, or simply fistful-of-dice generally, will be a lot more powerful. However, this <em>will</em> definitely speed up combat, so it's worth considering.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know if they'll really eliminate "power bloat" per se. Several of them end up with a similar number of total powers--it's only really classes like Knight and Slayer that truly excise a lot of stuff. They just don't give you the <em>choice</em> of what power you take at the strategic level (or a choice between 2 options)--the tactical level remains choice-heavy, IIRC. It sort of depends on what you mean by "power bloat"; is it the pool of options players can choose from when they level up, or the pool of options they can choose while actually in-combat?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd say probably mid-Paragon, so level 14-16 is where things might get too much for your tastes, but it's hard to say for sure. That's when you've hit your maximum total of regular powers and start <em>replacing</em> lower-level ones, rather than simply adding more. (Utility powers are the only non-At-Will powers you never replace; your pool of those continues to grow, albeit slowly.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8152430, member: 6790260"] You can speed it up, but it requires buy-in from everyone--DM included. Using the Monster Manual 3 stats (which are lower-HP, lower-defense, higher-damage), relying on minions, keeping limits on conditions that excessively complicate matters, etc. On the player side, having prewritten power cards, ALWAYS paying attention even on other players' turns, and tracking turn order and conditional effects as simply and accurately as possible. (A whiteboard is actually very helpful here, along with either colored bands, colored tokens, or magnetic tokens to stick to the white board.) Been thinking about how to do 4e-ified simple combats too--probably riffing off the Skill Challenge rules--but I haven't done any concrete work yet. If that's of interest, I'll look into it. And on the subject of Skill Challenges, I have some significant advice that...doesn't technically [I]contradict[/I] the SC rules, but rather expands beyond them to make them much more enjoyable than if played precisely by-the-book (which can make them feel REALLY stilted and mechanistic.) Well, some amount of "options" and "builds" is unavoidable because even the books use the term "build," and part of the tactical combat resides in which choices you make at the (for lack of a better term) "strategic" level. If you want to keep that "strategic" level while cutting down on the chaff, I honestly do suggest the various class guide threads you can find here on ENWorld. Not to be super-duper optimized, but because they cut through ALL the crappy chaff BS and get to the good stuff. If you dislike it so much that you'd really rather avoid ALL of it, the "Essentials-style" classes are a halfway decent way to cut down on options, but even there there's still going to be feats and [I]some[/I] building of a character (e.g. there are two Cavalier Virtues to choose from). Not all classes [I]got[/I] an Essentials-style writeup though, e.g. there is only the "original" Warlord, an emblematic class. Well, MM3 stats generally work pretty well for this, but if you want to take it further, this might work. The only problem will be that that's what crits already do (plus some rolled extra dice), so you'll want to make a new rule for crits. Double max damage [I]could[/I] work, but it will make PCs hit really REALLY hard. The other side of this is that fistful-of-small-dice attacks, or simply fistful-of-dice generally, will be a lot more powerful. However, this [I]will[/I] definitely speed up combat, so it's worth considering. I don't know if they'll really eliminate "power bloat" per se. Several of them end up with a similar number of total powers--it's only really classes like Knight and Slayer that truly excise a lot of stuff. They just don't give you the [I]choice[/I] of what power you take at the strategic level (or a choice between 2 options)--the tactical level remains choice-heavy, IIRC. It sort of depends on what you mean by "power bloat"; is it the pool of options players can choose from when they level up, or the pool of options they can choose while actually in-combat? I'd say probably mid-Paragon, so level 14-16 is where things might get too much for your tastes, but it's hard to say for sure. That's when you've hit your maximum total of regular powers and start [I]replacing[/I] lower-level ones, rather than simply adding more. (Utility powers are the only non-At-Will powers you never replace; your pool of those continues to grow, albeit slowly.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
Top