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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8155080" data-attributes="member: 6790260">It's complicated! Sometimes, you have fun doing something you truly dislike because you do it with friends. Sometimes you "like" something because it's all you've ever known. For both, you could have much MORE fun.Both applied to my experience with pre-4e D&D. I "had fun" playing 3.5e multiple times. Yet I also kept trying to change it, thinking some small tweak or fix would make it truly sing. When I eventually got to 4e, I suddenly understood not only why, but THAT I had been frustrated with 3rd edition's fundamental design, in ways that couldn't be fixed with small changes. Frex, class balance (e.g. Bard/Paladin/Sorcerer kinda sucking compared to alternatives), or actually welcoming teamwork instead of being "ruthlessly optimize yourself because that's always best." Moving to 4e finally made me realize how much fun I WASN'T having, but couldn't see because I knew of no alternative.Fun IS important. If you're truly happy doing X, awesome, do it. Just don't forget that "I had fun because I hung out with friends" or "I had fun because I had no idea there was another way" are possibilities.My pleasure! Always glad to help others make the best of 4th edition. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />My intent, for when I actually get to making the example I offered, was not to present a "canned" example so much as propose a concept, and then work through it one step at a time, asking IRL friends for ideas and suggestions to help keep things fresh and forcing me to adapt to their ideas. IOW, try to give a "live dissection" of my improv process, if that makes sense. I don't think I'll have something ready tonight, but in the next few days I should have something. (Depends on how much I can get done despite running a session tomorrow and then Christmas Eve the next day...)Have in fact seen both of these as a player. It was good stuff. We were infiltrating a hive of hive-minded psychic insects to get crystals to rebuild an important ship. The fight forced us to evacuate, but we got the crystals we needed and the wrap-up was the escape, with the last one being a check to make sure the big heavy--my paladin--could make it across a gap.I forgot to check the DMG2 when I was writing that up, so it's possible that it's more clearly spelled out there than I remember. Regardless, I am still of the opinion that the presentation in general made this...not as enthusiastically embraced as it should be. Still, such things weren't at all emphasized in the DMG1, and for a lot of people that was their only exposure to those rules (if they had any at all). I'm very much of the opinion that that sort of thing should be front-and-center, a core part of the Skill Challenge experience.And, I mean, I did say "you're not so much breaking the RAW as going beyond it."</blockquote>

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