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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 8260994" data-attributes="member: 6704184">The rogue is practically impossible to find by most monsters without it. It’s also a team game. Hasting the Barbarian doesn’t make any Barbarian I’ve ever seen feel like the Wizard is carrying them. A player who feels that way should consider playing video games, instead. You’ve moved the goalposts with that last. The ranger is a great exploration support class, though not as good as they should be. The Rogue is a better forward scout in anything but the wilderness, and wins there too if the ranger is siding Deft Explorer and the Rogue is wilderness focused. It’s only fair to assume the rogue “specs face”, if we are assuming the Ranger is taking the “be okay at being a face” subclass.Further, the Ranger will have lower charisma. They are fairly close at level 3 and 4, but the gap just widens from there. At level 3, ranger has maybe +6 (prof+14 wisdom+14Charisma), +8 using Deft Explorer to Expertise 1 face skill, at best. More likely a point lower, because they still need Con to not suck.A face rogue, even with only 14 Cha (I’ve seen plenty of swashbucklers with 16 Cha), will have +6 to probably 2 of 3 Cha skills, for those 2 levels. At 5 they pull ahead further. And the Rogue has 1 more class skill, and 3 more expertise skills, than the ranger.Hell, a scout can face better and scout just as well as the ranger. At will. 4 expertise by level 6, plus cunning action, 4 skills from class, and thieves tools for free. Thief can Use An Object as a bonus action and effectively has a climb speed at level 3. Scout has expertise on 6 skills by level 6, two of which are Survival and Nature without using up any of their 4 skill proficiencies. Arcane Trickster (at will) can pick pockets and work locks and traps from 30ft away, and it’s invisible.Ranger cannot compete with that without burning spell after spell, the best of which are all concentration.   Favored Foe helps here, by easing the need to turn spell slots into damage, but not by much. Neither class natively has find familiar, but both have a subclass than can get either that spell or a pet. The ranger again, can pull ahead with a spell slot, but not if the rogue decides to focus on that, or even just get a familiar.The ranger will likely be better at survival checks, but most of the time they’ll be even on perception, and the rogue will be better at stealth. The ranger can’t use Pass Without Trace and Beast Sense at the same time, and is best off scouting with the rogue, with PWOT up and letting the rogue take the lead.A Scout with Stealth, Athletics, Investigate, and Perception as their Expertise skills, or Arcane Trickster, or a Thief with Ritual Caster, wins this contest easily. The ranger is spending a 2nd level spell slot, and concentration. It’s a great spell, but a ranger that is relying on it to be great at stealth...is only situationally great at stealth.</blockquote>

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