Amazon listing for the Book of Vile Darkness

[I'm A Banana]

Really, we're giving up books that would add useful options for a wide variety of players like Arcane Power 2, Divine Power 2 and Primal Power 2 for this.

You mean we're giving up meaningless power splat 2 in exchange for something else?

Really, for me, it doesn't matter what we're giving that stuff up for. The slow trickle of KEWL NEW POWERZ is a baleful addiction that we've been well rid of, IMO. I'd MUCH rather have a flavorful tie-in product that can spawn a million campaigns than "Hay gais, now I can be another different sort of priest again forever, OH BOY!"

I don't know if this book's gonna be any good. It could be junk on toast. I'm just pumped that they're doing anything other than Powerful Powers Book 7, MOAR POWER!

Heck, not that there's not a place for those kinds of things, either. I've got nothing against character options. I've got a little something against the "here's some random character options crammed in a book together and put on a bookshelf, that'll be $30 now please" format. I'm rapturous that they're not tethering themselves to that sinking stone.

Whether or not their experiments will succeed....eh...I think it's awesome that there's a little actual Book of Vile Darkness included with the thing. And I think if the Sci-Fi movie isn't absolute tripe, it'll be awesome to have, and to use to introduce people to the game. But really, I'm just happy they're not shoveling another heap of randomly generated character options down our ever-eager baby bird maws.

 

[Aegeri]

You mean we're giving up meaningless power splat 2 in exchange for something else?

It's not meaningless when those books would be giving support to classes that a lot of players frequently ask "Are they getting any support in future"? That's the best thing about reliable books like the power books, because you don't have mass confusion if classes are being permanently abandoned (which it certainly looks like is the case now).

Really, for me, it doesn't matter what we're giving that stuff up for. The slow trickle of KEWL NEW POWERZ is a baleful addiction that we've been well rid of

Obviously you've not really been reading what has been released, which has for the most part added "KEWL NEW POWERZ" just like a splat book in the first place. It's just adding them to the Wizard, Cleric and other casters and screw everyone else. Oh with the odd highly limited build that will probably be left to die just like all the other classes I keep mentioning.

Personally I would have more support for the artificer/runepriest/seeker than this any day. But that's just me.

 

[Incenjucar]

The slow trickle of KEWL NEW POWERZ is a baleful addiction that we've been well rid of, IMO. I'd MUCH rather have a flavorful tie-in product that can spawn a million campaigns than "Hay gais, now I can be another different sort of priest again forever, OH BOY!"

Flavorful tie-in products will inevitably include KEWL NEW POWERZ for the wizard and a new version of a class featured in the 2nd Edition PHB that plays more like something that came out before some of the current players were born, and another hexblade.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Flavorful tie-in products will inevitably include KEWL NEW POWERZ for the wizard and a new version of a class featured in the 2nd Edition PHB that plays more like something that came out before some of the current players were born, and another hexblade.

I don't know about that specifically -- it could include kewl new powerz for PHB3 classes or whatever. But as long as the flavorful product is flavorful, it can also include sweet character options. I'm not against character options. I'm kind of opposed to splatbooks, though. That is, books that are just jamming character options between a hardcover and putting it out on a treadmill. Mostly because they're magnificently tedious to me.

Obviously you've not really been reading what has been released, which has for the most part added "KEWL NEW POWERZ" just like a splat book in the first place. It's just adding them to the Wizard, Cleric and other casters and screw everyone else. Oh with the odd highly limited build that will probably be left to die just like all the other classes I keep mentioning.

SEE ABOVE

It's not meaningless when those books would be giving support to classes that a lot of players frequently ask "Are they getting any support in future"? That's the best thing about reliable books like the power books, because you don't have mass confusion if classes are being permanently abandoned (which it certainly looks like is the case now).

No book is reliable, and unless they're never going to put out another 4e book, I wouldn't assume that the classes are permanently abandoned. Moreover, that's neither here nor there. Plenty of books don't have Runepriest options. Plenty of books don't have Sorcerer options. Plenty of books don't have goblin options. A book should probably earn its cover price based on what is inside, not on what is not.

 

[ppaladin123]

While martial power 1 WAS basically just a book filled with pages of powers, the others in the series (divine power, arcane power, and especially primal and psionic power) were also chock full of interesting fluff including descriptions of magic, stories in side bars, mini-biographies of famous NPCs, and historical descriptions of wars, gods, etc.

I found plenty of flavor that was useful for my campaigns and for character creation.

 

[Aegeri]

I don't know about that specifically -- it could include kewl new powerz for PHB3 classes or whatever.

Heroes of the Fallen Lands added more powers for wizards/clerics.

Heroes of Shadow added more powers for wizards/clerics.

Heroes of Feywild will, more than likely given the direction currently, add more powers for wizards/clerics (because that's what their books seem to do now).

I'm not sure you even realize how absurd your argument is based on what the stuff being published is actually doing.

But as long as the flavorful product is flavorful, it can also include
sweet character options.

I think the Skirmishing Warlord and Brawler Fighter were two of the best things added to 4E. Both of them were added in a splat book. I also really enjoyed Psionic Power, not only for the great new powers in it but also all the supporting material they added. The book single handedly changed my opinion about psionics.

Thus far I don't feel HoS has added anything significant to 4E whatsoever - certainly it isn't any different to a splatbook IMO. It easily feels like a shadow themed combined arcane and divine power with a couple of very confused classes in it.

I'm not against character options. I'm kind of opposed to splatbooks

HoS is a splat book. It gives a bunch of powers to Wizards and Clerics, then two very linear and largely optionless classes. There are actually more powers JUST for Wizards and Clerics in the book than new classes. Did you realize that?

No book is reliable, and unless they're never going to put out another 4e book

Unless those books have been 100% consistent in providing new builds for classes released before their own release. For example an Arcane Power 2 would certainly give the artificer more powers and a new build. A divine power 2 would certainly give the runepriest some new powers and a new build. That's what those books did and what they were for.

I would not anticipate this book to have a lot of PC options either (I think the blurb mentioned something about rituals). If it does, I wouldn't be surprised if it is filled with yet more wizard options. At the same time it is being written by Robert J. Schwalb it has a chance - but I don't know how much of a chance that is with the current "direction".

 

[I'm A Banana]

Heroes of the Fallen Lands added more powers for wizards/clerics.

Heroes of Shadow added more powers for wizards/clerics.

Heroes of Feywild will, more than likely given the direction currently, add more powers for wizards/clerics (because that's what their books seem to do now).

Well, if it makes me want to play one of those things, I will be happy. The pyromancer made me want to play a wizard, so that made me happy, because I got to play one, and it was fun. Still haven't found a cleric I am enamored of, tho. That's fine, though, since there are a lot of things I want to play, and only so much time in which to play them.

I'm not sure you even realize how absurd your argument is based on what the stuff being published is actually doing.

My argument that future books might someday include options for existing classes? Nah, I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen. I don't know which specific classes. No one who isn't currently designing those books does.

Thus far I don't feel HoS has added anything significant to 4E whatsoever - certainly it isn't any different to a splatbook IMO. It easily feels like a shadow themed combined arcane and divine power with a couple of very confused classes in it.

Reasonable people can come to different conclusions on what they found useful additions to the game.

Never seen a brawler fighter, never saw a skirmishing warlord, but I do have a gnome assassin I'm looking to bring back with the new HoS assassin. Seen a handful of psionic characters (got an ardent in my usual Monday game now!), don't know if they've used PP options or not.

But, hey, the game has room for all of these. I just don't particularly enjoy being given them in a steaming shovel of character options.

Kind of like how I don't particularly enjoy being given monsters in alphabetical lists of statblocks with the meat of the flavor being "the SWORDFIGHTER DIRESHADOW is evil and dark and hates good guys and maybe eats them", but I really like what the new Monster Vault is shaping up to be like!

I would not anticipate this book to have a lot of PC options either (I think the blurb mentioned something about rituals). If it does, I wouldn't be surprised if it is filled with yet more wizard options. At the same time it is being written by Robert J. Schwalb it has a chance - but I don't know how much of a chance that is with the current "direction".

You seem to be afraid of a conspiracy that does not exist, and, even if it were to exist, is not that big of a deal.

Chillax, mang.

 

[Aegeri]

Or perhaps I'm entirely consistent in recognizing that there is little difference from a splat book that calls itself "Heroes of Shadow" offering tons of powers for Wizards/Clerics specifically and one theoretically called "Heroes of the Divine" that adds tons of powers to 5 divine classes (or whatever it is now). Except a title and what it covers of course.

but I do have a gnome assassin I'm looking to bring back with the new HoS assassin.

You mean the old Executioner released in November last year that was supposed to be a DDI exclusive build, which actually wasn't as it was actually a playtest that wound up in the book?

Edit:

Kind of like how I don't particularly enjoy being given monsters in alphabetical lists of statblocks with the meat of the flavor being "the SWORDFIGHTER DIRESHADOW is evil and dark and hates good guys and maybe eats them", but I really like what the new Monster Vault is shaping up to be like!

I actually really like the new MV as well but that's because the mechanics are so sound. I didn't read the fluff first - I went straight to the stat blocks. Bad mechanics aren't saved by fluff. Good fluff adds to great mechanics, so the next MV does sound incredibly good (as it finally marries both expertly). At the same time, I am going to make a bold prediction based on the way Wizards have been publishing things and guess epic tier will get screwed again. I'm going to guess there will be nothing in there epic monster wise most likely. At the same time I'm still going to absolutely love it if the preview is a good indication of what will be in it: But the growing feeling of unhappiness and sheer disappointment in Wizards from having no epic monsters again, will sully what should have been a simply awesome book from cover to cover.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Or perhaps I'm entirely consistent in recognizing that there is little difference from a splat book that calls itself "Heroes of Shadow" offering tons of powers for Wizards/Clerics specifically and one theoretically called "Heroes of the Divine" that adds tons of powers to 5 divine classes (or whatever it is now). Except a title and what it covers of course.

The thread isn't about Heroes of Shadow, though. It's about the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is cool to me because it's not a splatbook full of randomly assembled character options. If you want to gripe about Heroes of Shadow, there's about 5 threads right there for ya.

You mean the old Executioner released in November last year that was supposed to be a DDI exclusive build, which actually wasn't as it was actually a playtest that wound up in the book?

Yep. I make my characters via the CB almost exclusively, since it's easier to keep track of all of 4e's fiddly bits that way and to see most of my options at a quick glance without having to page through books and PDF files to find the exact feat that'll be awesome for my character. I had fun with my gnome assassin before, and I'm looking to put him back in the game in a way that better fits my original concept of him as a murderer, rather than a shadow-mage.

But anyway, I have no idea what I'll be able to do with the BoVD. I'm pretty excited to find out, though! And I would not be so excited about Powerful Power 3, since it would just become another splatbook I ignore until I want to build a new character for my game.

I mean, how many Brawler Fighters and Skirmishing Warlords have you personally played for 30 levels in a regular game so far? And if you haven't done that, but they're your favorite parts of the game, how does that exactly work? Don't you think you could make use a dose of something different alongside your favorite characters?

 

[Incenjucar]

BoVD is, historically, primarily a DM sourcebook, with a splat portion for players. If the previous book is any indication, it'll be about 1/3 Vile Power, 1/3 A DM's Guide to Vile, and 1/3 Vile Monsters.