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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
an attempt to discuss the actual *content* of the BoEF
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<blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1111818" data-attributes="member: 10201"><p>OK, let's try this again. I'm going to set aside all the things i <em>wanted</em> to say in the last BoEF thread that had nothing to do with the BoEF itself--responses to things people said. [and believe me, i <strong>really</strong> wanted to question some of the assumptions/beliefs that some people's posts implied--but i won't. So please try not to do so, either.] If you think the BoEF shouldn't exist, is inherently immoral or vile, or any such similar sentiments, this thread isn't for you.</p><p></p><p>I'm also not interested in discussing the art. I actually kind of like the art, but i don't consider it important to judging the book as a game book. For me, it's a non-issue--at least it's better-looking than the junk that WotC has been using in their books [can you tell i don't like the "dungeonpunk" look? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ]</p><p></p><p>But, about the content of BoEF itself: i've only skimmed the preview and read a couple reviews [of the preview]. One of those reviews was pretty much content-free: lot's about Valterra/Valar, and the creators, but, unless i somehow missed it, the extent of info on the actual content was racial gestation periods, "great art", alignment and attitudes towards sex, and "there's meticulous attention to detail". IOW, i haven't a clue what's in the book, based on that review. </p><p></p><p>Now, from reading the preview, and the other review, i actually have a fairly good idea of what is going to be in the book. Which leads to my question:</p><p></p><p>What does this add?</p><p></p><p>I'm not questioning what adding sex, courtship, reproduction, families, or relationships to a game adds. I think those are all self-evident (if not universally-agreed-upon). And i'm in the camp that thinks those are excellent things to add to a game, provided the group is interested in them and comfortable with them, and provided that they add to the RPG experience. But i'm not seeing how the BoEF actually adds anything to the portrayal of those elements in the game.</p><p></p><p>Now, this is not just an argument--i'm actually looking for info. I know there are those out there who have the preview (i only have what i picked up in a bit of a hurry from reading a copy at GenCon), and at least one person has shown up who playtested the full rules, and maybe the creators are around here somewhere. So, someone explain to me how this makes the inclusion of those topics more mature, or more enjoyable, or more ... something.</p><p></p><p>In fairness, let me disclose my predisposition. When i first read the preview, my feeling was that the content was very juvenile, addressing sexuality and relationships with about the maturity and rationality of a group of 14yr-old boys looking at their first Hustler. After reading the good review, i suspect that was unfair--though it still makes me think more of one of those sex-ninja Animes than <em>Kissed</em>. The rules provided seem to have about as much resemblance to actual relationships/sex as D&D3E's combat rules have to the Battle of Agincourt. Which doesn't really bring sex into the game--it turns sex into just another source of kewl powerz. He prays for an hour at dawn to prepare his spells, she goes to a brothel to prepare a special attack. </p><p></p><p>I'm comparing this to <em>Sex and Sorcery</em>, a supplement for <em>Sorcerer</em>, which is all about sex & relationships in RPGs. It talks about such things as figuring out what degree of sex is appropriate for your group/theme/genre/etc. *How* to incorporate sexual content into your games, if you want to do so. The concept of veils and lines (not sure i'm remembering the terminology right): lines are those points you don't cross over; veils are those points you cross over, but don't make explicit. </p><p></p><p>When i looked at the BoEF preview, my impression was that the rules were workmanlike but nothing amazing, and didn't really address the topics in a mature, deep manner. It felt more like skimming the surface, tacking on some sexual terms to otherwise-generic D20 System game elements. IOW, once you strip away the flavor text, it looked to me like the mechanical content is just more of the same. And i'm having trouble being convinced that hooking mechanics into sex is the way to address the topic "with maturity". Frankly, the actual content doesn't look any more "mature"--or, for me, interesting--than the Book of Vile Darkness.</p><p></p><p>So, convince me. What have i missed in the content that really brings something new to the gaming table? How will this help a group that wants to include sexual themes in their game but hasn't managed to figure out <em>how</em> yet? Or is it only really of use to those who are already comfortable and facile with sexual themes in their games, and would just like to have some mechanical bits hooking into them?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="woodelf, post: 1111818, member: 10201"] OK, let's try this again. I'm going to set aside all the things i [i]wanted[/i] to say in the last BoEF thread that had nothing to do with the BoEF itself--responses to things people said. [and believe me, i [b]really[/b] wanted to question some of the assumptions/beliefs that some people's posts implied--but i won't. So please try not to do so, either.] If you think the BoEF shouldn't exist, is inherently immoral or vile, or any such similar sentiments, this thread isn't for you. I'm also not interested in discussing the art. I actually kind of like the art, but i don't consider it important to judging the book as a game book. For me, it's a non-issue--at least it's better-looking than the junk that WotC has been using in their books [can you tell i don't like the "dungeonpunk" look? ;) ] But, about the content of BoEF itself: i've only skimmed the preview and read a couple reviews [of the preview]. One of those reviews was pretty much content-free: lot's about Valterra/Valar, and the creators, but, unless i somehow missed it, the extent of info on the actual content was racial gestation periods, "great art", alignment and attitudes towards sex, and "there's meticulous attention to detail". IOW, i haven't a clue what's in the book, based on that review. Now, from reading the preview, and the other review, i actually have a fairly good idea of what is going to be in the book. Which leads to my question: What does this add? I'm not questioning what adding sex, courtship, reproduction, families, or relationships to a game adds. I think those are all self-evident (if not universally-agreed-upon). And i'm in the camp that thinks those are excellent things to add to a game, provided the group is interested in them and comfortable with them, and provided that they add to the RPG experience. But i'm not seeing how the BoEF actually adds anything to the portrayal of those elements in the game. Now, this is not just an argument--i'm actually looking for info. I know there are those out there who have the preview (i only have what i picked up in a bit of a hurry from reading a copy at GenCon), and at least one person has shown up who playtested the full rules, and maybe the creators are around here somewhere. So, someone explain to me how this makes the inclusion of those topics more mature, or more enjoyable, or more ... something. In fairness, let me disclose my predisposition. When i first read the preview, my feeling was that the content was very juvenile, addressing sexuality and relationships with about the maturity and rationality of a group of 14yr-old boys looking at their first Hustler. After reading the good review, i suspect that was unfair--though it still makes me think more of one of those sex-ninja Animes than [i]Kissed[/i]. The rules provided seem to have about as much resemblance to actual relationships/sex as D&D3E's combat rules have to the Battle of Agincourt. Which doesn't really bring sex into the game--it turns sex into just another source of kewl powerz. He prays for an hour at dawn to prepare his spells, she goes to a brothel to prepare a special attack. I'm comparing this to [i]Sex and Sorcery[/i], a supplement for [i]Sorcerer[/i], which is all about sex & relationships in RPGs. It talks about such things as figuring out what degree of sex is appropriate for your group/theme/genre/etc. *How* to incorporate sexual content into your games, if you want to do so. The concept of veils and lines (not sure i'm remembering the terminology right): lines are those points you don't cross over; veils are those points you cross over, but don't make explicit. When i looked at the BoEF preview, my impression was that the rules were workmanlike but nothing amazing, and didn't really address the topics in a mature, deep manner. It felt more like skimming the surface, tacking on some sexual terms to otherwise-generic D20 System game elements. IOW, once you strip away the flavor text, it looked to me like the mechanical content is just more of the same. And i'm having trouble being convinced that hooking mechanics into sex is the way to address the topic "with maturity". Frankly, the actual content doesn't look any more "mature"--or, for me, interesting--than the Book of Vile Darkness. So, convince me. What have i missed in the content that really brings something new to the gaming table? How will this help a group that wants to include sexual themes in their game but hasn't managed to figure out [i]how[/i] yet? Or is it only really of use to those who are already comfortable and facile with sexual themes in their games, and would just like to have some mechanical bits hooking into them? [/QUOTE]
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