an attempt to discuss the actual *content* of the BoEF

[woodelf]

OK, let's try this again. I'm going to set aside all the things i wanted to say in the last BoEF thread that had nothing to do with the BoEF itself--responses to things people said. [and believe me, i really wanted to question some of the assumptions/beliefs that some people's posts implied--but i won't. So please try not to do so, either.] If you think the BoEF shouldn't exist, is inherently immoral or vile, or any such similar sentiments, this thread isn't for you.

I'm also not interested in discussing the art. I actually kind of like the art, but i don't consider it important to judging the book as a game book. For me, it's a non-issue--at least it's better-looking than the junk that WotC has been using in their books [can you tell i don't like the "dungeonpunk" look? ]

But, about the content of BoEF itself: i've only skimmed the preview and read a couple reviews [of the preview]. One of those reviews was pretty much content-free: lot's about Valterra/Valar, and the creators, but, unless i somehow missed it, the extent of info on the actual content was racial gestation periods, "great art", alignment and attitudes towards sex, and "there's meticulous attention to detail". IOW, i haven't a clue what's in the book, based on that review.

Now, from reading the preview, and the other review, i actually have a fairly good idea of what is going to be in the book. Which leads to my question:

What does this add?

I'm not questioning what adding sex, courtship, reproduction, families, or relationships to a game adds. I think those are all self-evident (if not universally-agreed-upon). And i'm in the camp that thinks those are excellent things to add to a game, provided the group is interested in them and comfortable with them, and provided that they add to the RPG experience. But i'm not seeing how the BoEF actually adds anything to the portrayal of those elements in the game.

Now, this is not just an argument--i'm actually looking for info. I know there are those out there who have the preview (i only have what i picked up in a bit of a hurry from reading a copy at GenCon), and at least one person has shown up who playtested the full rules, and maybe the creators are around here somewhere. So, someone explain to me how this makes the inclusion of those topics more mature, or more enjoyable, or more ... something.

In fairness, let me disclose my predisposition. When i first read the preview, my feeling was that the content was very juvenile, addressing sexuality and relationships with about the maturity and rationality of a group of 14yr-old boys looking at their first Hustler. After reading the good review, i suspect that was unfair--though it still makes me think more of one of those sex-ninja Animes than Kissed. The rules provided seem to have about as much resemblance to actual relationships/sex as D&D3E's combat rules have to the Battle of Agincourt. Which doesn't really bring sex into the game--it turns sex into just another source of kewl powerz. He prays for an hour at dawn to prepare his spells, she goes to a brothel to prepare a special attack.

I'm comparing this to Sex and Sorcery, a supplement for Sorcerer, which is all about sex & relationships in RPGs. It talks about such things as figuring out what degree of sex is appropriate for your group/theme/genre/etc. *How* to incorporate sexual content into your games, if you want to do so. The concept of veils and lines (not sure i'm remembering the terminology right): lines are those points you don't cross over; veils are those points you cross over, but don't make explicit.

When i looked at the BoEF preview, my impression was that the rules were workmanlike but nothing amazing, and didn't really address the topics in a mature, deep manner. It felt more like skimming the surface, tacking on some sexual terms to otherwise-generic D20 System game elements. IOW, once you strip away the flavor text, it looked to me like the mechanical content is just more of the same. And i'm having trouble being convinced that hooking mechanics into sex is the way to address the topic "with maturity". Frankly, the actual content doesn't look any more "mature"--or, for me, interesting--than the Book of Vile Darkness.

So, convince me. What have i missed in the content that really brings something new to the gaming table? How will this help a group that wants to include sexual themes in their game but hasn't managed to figure out how yet? Or is it only really of use to those who are already comfortable and facile with sexual themes in their games, and would just like to have some mechanical bits hooking into them?

 

[BSF]

Well, I didn't go to Gen Con, so I could not pickup the preview. So, my thoughts on the little bit I have been able to glean:

Fluff text - Probably one of the more controversial areas of the book. Some of the sex magic stuff might be interesting in the correct campaign. Otherwise, it will be a silly joke gimmick. "I go get laid so I have better Int/Wis. I am so kewl." As has been shown in other threads, people are widely going to disagree on the fluff text. Is it handled maturely? Subjective question. It is easier to judge this thing by crunchy bits and avoid the hotly debated moral discussions. (Mind you, I am not saying that those discussions have no place, but the line is quickly drawn between the two camps on whether this book should even exist.)

Feats and skills - Some are kind of silly (see above) but some seem interesting. Again, a lot of this will depend on the correct context for the campaign. But, there are a few feats previewed that do not seem to rely on a sexual requisite.

Spells - From the preview spells I have seen, I like them conceptually. Mechanically, they aren't finished. An example: Kiss of Life - Will allow a Bard or a Sorceror (Not a Wizard!) to bring the deceased back. Mind you, the deceased must be brought back within 1 round/spellcaster level of death, so it has to happen quickly. Additionally, the caster must make a Fortitude save to avoid losing a level.

Neat affect, but the mechanic is broken. Why? Because it seems the more competent a caster you are, the harder the DC will be. The best caster would be a high level Bard with a 15 Cha so the DC would only be 17. I would suggest something like a DC 10 + subject's character level so that it will be harder to avoid when you are raising a high level character. But, that is just me.

This is 1/3 of the spells I have seen. I doubt that ratio is broken in the book, but we will see.

PrC's - The ultimate crunchy bit that everyone looks at when evaluating a book, right? The Vestal Virgin looks interesting and could be quite playable. One problem I forsee is that some of the benefits may not stack nicely with the Paladin's benefits. Since the Paladin is one of the classes this PrC is aimed at, it could use a little more work.

They need to make sure the bonuses are clearly typed and might want to re-think the statement that many Vestal Virgins are Paladins. Or, rework the benefits of the class so they do not clash with the Paladin so much. (What, the Vestal Virgin that used to be a Paladin has 2 special mounts?)

In the same vein, I will include the base classes here. The Imagist is a Sorceror similar class using the (new) attribute of Appearance to cast Divine spells. OK, fair enough I guess. It is an interesting class that might work nicely. Inspired Smite Evil could be fun. Of course, if I _really_ looked at it closer, it might just be wacky.

Gods - More gods to have PC's/NPC's to worship. Necessary? Probably not. Interesting? Maybe. I can't really judge based on one preview.

Critters - The Fallen Seraphim is just nasty. Not as a melee opponent, but the flavor text is wicked. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly will not suit everyone. It would make an interesting opponent to base an adventure around. I could easily see designing an adventure around a Fallen Seraphim that is harassing a city. The PC's must stop it. I think I would play the creature up with a lot of self-loathing, begging to be slain, but fighting it every bit that it could. Would I do that for every campaign style? Heck no!

My opinion: The morality issues will bring this book up for hotly contested debate. Especially with the marketing angles that have been taken. Aside from that though, what mechanics will work here? From the previews I have seen on the Valar site, some of the mechanics are less than optimal. I can see using portions of this in some games.

What will I use? All the preview spells have good flavor that I would drop into most any campaign. The Vestal Virgin has a fit for my world, though I would tweak it somewhat. This will be enough for me to give the book a serious look when it is released.

If anyone else has the printed preview, I would be interested in hearing the strengths/weaknesses of the mechanics.

 

[Belen]

When the book was first announced, I asked, "why?" What will this book bring to my game or any game that I have ever participated in? After looking at the press release and then a copy of the preview material, the answer was simple. Not a thing will be added to the game.

This book seems primarily for teenaged boys who have no concept of mature sex. What I have seen of the book is not "mature." Instead, it fits more into a 14 year old virgin fantasy mindset. It is aimed at people under 18 even if they say that it is not. The only people I can see using it are teens and college freshman.

The material does not seem completed or even playtested well. For me, it seems like a slash and grab. Let's print some racy material in order to make a quick buck. The controversy alone will drive sales rather than mature, well founded rules.

I cannot see why anyone would use the material. It feels more like indoctination into a set of morals and beliefs rather than a rule set that will add mature elements about romance, families and sex into the game.

I know that I would not use the material in my game nor would I participate in games that used it.

However, that is just my beliefs, although my gaming group seems to agree with me.

Dave

 

[Hand of Evil]

A lot is going to depend on your game type and your group. I found some of the information in the preview interesting and see a limited use for it in my games but mostly as a NPC format.

While the material was not really bad it is limited in playability (at least in my group), the artwork was crap and that bothered me, it is not that it was mature but bad art.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

I have not seen the book itself, but I'm told it contains spells, flavor text and ways to use sex and relationships to enhance the PCs lives.
I've been told it is not well written, although that is mostly from people who can't seem to stay away from preaching their "this book is meant for 14 year old boys" spiel to start arguments in threads which clearly ask that they stay away from that...

For the record, I am not a 14 year old boy and I think this book sounds quite interesting.

Sadly, though, a few serious people have also told me that the book is poorly written. Some of the spells, such as Kiss of Life, sound like they do have potential to be very interesting in game. I think there are probably others as well.

I think that given the nature of the book, it's going to be one of those things I will have to look at and decide for myself.

I guess I don't have much to add here, other than, I hope that this thread doesn't get shut down and stays serious because I am another person who's quite interested in hearing reviews of this book.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

I think that given the nature of the book, it's going to be one of those things I will have to look at and decide for myself.

That is the BEST way to handle a book like this.

 

[d4]

That is the BEST way to handle a book like this.

not just a book like this, ANY book.

i'm also interested in taking a look at this. i hope the book isn't just "here's crunchy stuff (spells, feats, PrCs) that add sex to your game," but rather "here's how to add sex to your game in a mature and thoughtful fashion."

the book woodelf described in the first post sounds excellent in this regard. let's hope BoEF has something similar.

 

[Belen]

As I said, what I have SEEN of the book suggests thing that only a teen would giggle over. It could have material that is mature, but none that I have SEEN.

The thread asked to evaluate the book based on the content that has been released. I gave my opinion of that content.

I certainly would not allow my players to play a Dominant and Submissive PrC etc. However, I would allow the Companion PrC from Traps and Treachery.

One is tasteful and the other is not.

Enough said.

 

[Dinkeldog]

When discussing the content of the book, please discuss the content, and not the age and maturity of people who might like said book.

 

[Henry]

Discussing the preview contents within grandma-friendly parameters is like navigating a minefield; however, what I can say is that the mechanics portion of the book seem a bit on the conservative side. In scale from, say, "Monte Cook" balance to "Psionics Handbook" balance, it leans more toward the balance of the latter. This may not be a bad thing, because those who will take most of the PrC's and feats will do so for flavor anyway, more so than for power.

Flavor Text - If I were buying the full book, I would buy it in SPITE of the flavor text, not as part of my reasoning.

The Fallen Cherubim has a fascinating power, one that can generate enough roleplay hooks to keep a party going for a while. (The Queen must be protected from the Bandit leader/Orc leader/Otyugh at ALL COSTS!)

Other thoughts as they come to me. Gotta work now.