An 'Epic Levels' (or close to them) rant

[JimAde]

My approach is similar to those listed above. My leaders tend to be reasonably high level (7th-9th for local/regional nobles, while the kings/queens/grand dukes are around 15th). I assume that they are involved in both social and military conflicts for which they get XP even if they aren't directly swinging a sword.

King Ludwig of Osserik is a 90-year-old human Aristocrat 18 and is the highest-level NPC I've created. He is of little use in a fight since his physical stats are so lousy, but his Diplomacy and Intimidate modifiers are impressive.

 

[WayneLigon]

Same can be said for just about every class: everyone of importance socially is usually very high in level. Now, I haven't read the Eborron setting, so I can't say the same for it...

Two reasons come to mind:

(1) It's not that everyone of importance is high level, it's that high level people tend to become people of importance. If you're one of the best fighters around, every king is going to want you as his general. If you're a really high level wizard, he's going to want you for Court Wizard.

(2) Some writers continue to make the same mistakes you'd see in early Dragon articles on heroes from books, who frequently were uppty-millionth level in four or five classes. As far as I can tell, the main reason for that was to keep people from just offing them and taking their boatloads of Cool Stuff.

 

[S'mon]

I see two pretty good reasons for leaders of nations to be high level.

1. Extraordinary people tend to gravitate to positions of power. This happens in literature, the movies and in real life. I don't know about you but King Conan, the Emperor from Star Wars and Genghis Khan would all be high teen to epic level characters in my campaign and in most other campaigns as well.

The Mighty Conqueror/Usurper NPC will tend to be higher level than the guy who inherited his throne peacefully, of course. IMC I have rough equivalents for these 3:

Emperor Palpatine: Marradan, Immortal Arch-Lich ruler of the Red Wizards of Hel, he's around Wiz-25. He's approximately 600 years old.

Genghis Khan: Kadai Khan, Kha-Khan of the Mongali Empire. Kadai united the Mongali clans, defeated the Albine Empire, conquered Settlers' Country, destroyed Kardus (a legendary warlord) etc. He's 21st level Fighter and about 45, he was around 20th level by the time he was 25 though.

Conan: Overking Tarkane the Usurper. A minor noble who overthrew the Albine colonial rule and established the Overkingdom of Imarr when he was 12th level. He's still 'only' 16th level Fighter at age ca 45 although he rules the greatest empire on the planet, he delegates a lot and is very cautious (tons of people want him dead) so he advances rather slowly.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

To be in power you have to strong enough to hold it. Though that doesn't mean they have to be as high as you're saying (depending on the game world) that generally means the big players aren't just 5th level dudes (who are actaully more common in my game than in most, sometimes composing as much as 10% of an army). Many leaders of nations have been warriors as people are stating.

If you do have a low level guy in power its usually only because a high level guy keeps him there, such as a vizer, a knight sworn to defend to royal family (the 10 year old prince was just made king btw), or the system itself keeping that low level person in power.

 

[Thanee]

In Greyhawk leaders are often just 9th level or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

In Greyhawk leaders are often just 9th level or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

Not in my 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set - it lists them all, and every single one is 10th level or higher. Since I created my main campaign world around the same time I got the WoG set it was very influential in setting the parameters on this kind of thing, eg most rulers are 10th-12th, only a few are 18th+.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Not in my 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set - it lists them all, and every single one is 10th level or higher. Since I created my main campaign world around the same time I got the WoG set it was very influential in setting the parameters on this kind of thing, eg most rulers are 10th-12th, only a few are 18th+.

I was going to point out the very same thing - this has been a question that has come up at least since that poinnt in time.

I can buy rulers being in the 6th-10th level range (especially if its mostly Aristocrat levels), but higher than that seems to me unlikely in most cases. Most rulers get there because of birth, not personal power. They stay there because they don't upset the powerful enough that they need to be removed. Only a few would be "high level". The Caesars, the Alexander the Greats, and so on.

 

[Shemeska]

Because of skill points there's the assumption that nobody can be an effective ruler/diplomat/horse pooper scooper without umpteen ranks in profession (king), diplomacy, and profession (pooper scooper). Therefore, all those important people must be [booming voice]EPIC[/booming voice] level if they have any high skill or social standing because by a strict use of numbers they'd have to be.

To that mindset I say the following words: Get off my internet.

Last campaign I ran elections for the city council in Sigil (post Faction War) and had everyone from a yugoloth with sorcerer levels, to a straight up ogre-mage, to a 90 year old human woman with maybe 5 levels or so max. I don't restrict political influence and social standing in any way to actual levels you have.

 

[F5]

As a storyteller-focused GM, you probably give out a fair amount of role-playing-based bonus XP, not just XP for defeating enemies, am I right? I tend to be the same way, and that's how I justify making rulers high-level. Day-in and day-out they're surrounded by the intricacies of court politics. Each and every meeting, audince, lunch, or rousing speech is a "role-playing" encounter, and the king gets a little bit of XP for it. Not as much as for slaying demons, possibly, but over a 30-year rule, it adds up.

The game just works better if the rulers are high-level, IMO. It's more credible. This "role-playing XP" cop-out is just how I justify it...

 

[Voadam]

Well, its a matter of how powerful you want these NPCs to be and how prevalent high level characters are in the world.

If it is just the PCs who are heroes of the world and you want the rest of the world to be more real world simulationist then most NPCs should be low level.

If you like a world of personally powerful people for the PCs to interact with then the NPCs should be high level.

I like having high powered heroes in a high powered world so there are plenty of high level NPCs in lots of places (like the theocratic church empire, the mage's guild, the powerful demon allying evil noble house, etc.).