An 'Epic Levels' (or close to them) rant

[sword-dancer]

I imagine there are two kinds of rulers in a basic D&D campaign setting. The Conqueror (high-level), and the Inheritor (generally low-level). A Conqueror is going to be high-level. Once he dies, either his kingdom crumbles, or he passes his crown to an Inheritor. Then you get a line of Inheritors, until the next Conqueror comes along and beats down the Inheritor and takes the kingdom for his own.

Maybe,

Germaqn Empereors had a tradition of leading their warriors from the front.
Otto the I led them at Lechfield, he led them against the slaws(he didn`?t tool command, that duty he`d rest by commanders experienced in this war)
Otto II had the saying, he`d every quality of an empereor except to win battles, but nobody could`ve said anything about his courage and skill as a warrior.

The first Salian Empereor thrown with his own hand torches in enemy villages to alarm his troops, and he stood for the lowborn when needed against nobility.

Balduin the leper King was a boy, when he met Saladin in battle and won.

It isn`t necessary for a King to be the best warrior in his realm, that`s what the Kings Champion and the Kings Henchmen are for, but he must´ve the abilitities of a ruler and be able to assemble his vassals to war.
You don`t hold your crown with your swordskill at end, but your courage on the battlefield is one of the things to get the loyalty of your vassals and knights, Justice could get you loyailty also.


The Chief cleric of an church mustn`t automatically his highlevelst cleric, maybe his Aristocrat/experts level outranks his cleric level, because he must administrate his church.

 

[Storyteller01]

I think the way to approach this (and the way I do approach it in products I write, and my own campaign) is not to look at it like, "this person is powerful or influential, therefore they need to be high level," but rather to look at how they got to be powerful or influential.

WOW!! Didn't expect distinguished game producers to respond. Thanks for the help.

 

[Storyteller01]

Maybe,

Germaqn Empereors had a tradition of leading their warriors from the front.
Otto the I led them at Lechfield, he led them against the slaws(he didn`?t tool command, that duty he`d rest by commanders experienced in this war)
Otto II had the saying, he`d every quality of an empereor except to win battles, but nobody could`ve said anything about his courage and skill as a warrior.

The first Salian Empereor thrown with his own hand torches in enemy villages to alarm his troops, and he stood for the lowborn when needed against nobility.

Balduin the leper King was a boy, when he met Saladin in battle and won.

It isn`t necessary for a King to be the best warrior in his realm, that`s what the Kings Champion and the Kings Henchmen are for, but he must´ve the abilitities of a ruler and be able to assemble his vassals to war.
You don`t hold your crown with your swordskill at end, but your courage on the battlefield is one of the things to get the loyalty of your vassals and knights, Justice could get you loyailty also.


The Chief cleric of an church mustn`t automatically his highlevelst cleric, maybe his Aristocrat/experts level outranks his cleric level, because he must administrate his church.

Agreed. But most soldiers are (IMHO) between 3rd and 7th levels, with officers going as high as 10th. It may depend on how you dole out XP for mass combat, but I don't see such targets raising rulers going beyond 15th level, figuring in the XP given to the followers and soldiers that survive. And that's REALLY pushing it (you warmongering bastiges...)

Magic tends to raise the figures a bit, but medival combat could expect a 40 TO 50% casualty rate (unless the leader was particularly ruthless). That's a lot of survivors to give XP to, even if you use the 'you only gain XP for kills you make' rule.

Jus a thought that bugs me. trying to explain D&D with real life again...

 

[Storyteller01]

IMC the powerful rulers tend to be high level for the reason JoeG gave, but they are rarely the highest level in the Kingdom; eg King Hansor of Thrinia is 16th level but he can call upon 21st level allies & retainers, Overking Tarkane is 16th but he has 17th-19th liegemen likewise.

This is probably the trend that bugs me the most. 21st level characters are ...well.. epic! Your lucky if three or for exist at the same time, much less in the same kingdom. This may simply be my perceptions though. YMMV

 

[S'mon]

This is probably the trend that bugs me the most. 21st level characters are ...well.. epic! Your lucky if three or for exist at the same time, much less in the same kingdom. This may simply be my perceptions though. YMMV

Well, Thrinia is unusual IMC, it's a "player character kingdom" - its patron god Thrin is a PC -and it's pretty much the only one to have more than 1 active Epic NPC, I think it has 2 currently; another 2 Ascended a while back and are now hero-deities serving Thrin in Asgard. This kind of thing depends on demographics and the nature of the realm, Thrinia is a land of adventurers who tend to either die or level up fast, most countries IMC have no Epic NPCs. Where Thrinia pop 700,000 has 2 (both 21st level), the Overkingdom pop 16 million has none. There are maybe 6-8 Epic NPCs on the planet; including Liches.

 

[Storyteller01]

Leaders aren't supposed to be heroic. They're supposed to be leaders. And they don't last long as leaders by hanging around the front lines. They do say "Gee, go kill it for me." Because that's what leaders do - tell other people to do something. They just say it with authority and command.

And let's face it, heroic leaders (Gen. Patton is a good example) couldn't maintain their level of power after the need for heros had passed.

 

[S'mon]

Agreed. But most soldiers are (IMHO) between 3rd and 7th levels, with officers going as high as 10th.

That would be right IMC for Warrior Knights and other elites, regular soldiers are mostly 1st-4th level Warriors.

 

[sword-dancer]

Agreed. But most soldiers are (IMHO) between 3rd and 7th levels, with officers going as high as 10th. It may depend on how you dole out XP for mass combat, but I don't see such targets raising rulers going beyond 15th level, figuring in the XP given to the followers and soldiers that survive. And that's REALLY pushing it (you warmongering bastiges...)

Magic tends to raise the figures a bit, but medival combat could expect a 40 TO 50% casualty rate (unless the leader was particularly ruthless). That's a lot of survivors to give XP to, even if you use the 'you only gain XP for kills you make' rule.

Jus a thought that bugs me. trying to explain D&D with real life again...

There is no direct relation between military rank and char(PC-class at last) level.
War 1 is boot camp 2-3 is MOS and training experience, 4-5/6 are battle hadened Veteran, (6?)7 is the elite, the best of the line.
The Royal Guard, the emperors Grenadier Guards the OldGuard.
NCOs are usually at least 3 - 7th lev, Officers are equal, all other are extraordinary and change automatically to fighter.

I giveXP fpr Obstacles, I don`t care if this obstacle was a bridge(to cross, built or destroy), a cavalry charge , a hedge of pikes, foraging for supplies or political negotiations.

This is probably the trend that bugs me the most. 21st level characters are ...well.. epic! Your lucky if three or for exist at the same time, much less in the same kingdom. This may simply be my perceptions though. YMMV

That depends strictly on how the world is build.
You could`ve Epic Chars in the dozens or Not one.

 

[Storyteller01]

There is no direct relation between military rank and char(PC-class at last) level.

Agreed

War 1 is boot camp 2-3 is MOS and training experience, 4-5/6 are battle hadened Veteran, (6?)7 is the elite, the best of the line.

Pretty much the same thing I meant to say. Officers generally have greater training or were rank and final who worked there way up the ranks. Being an officer doesn't guarantee 10th level, but it is possible. Generals as well as platoon leaders (for lack of a better word) all fit in this catagory.

Exceptional NPC will be unique, as you metioned. I'd personally treat them as player characters.

I giveXP fpr Obstacles, I don`t care if this obstacle was a bridge(to cross, built or destroy), a cavalry charge , a hedge of pikes, foraging for supplies or political negotiations.

But in the end, would these bonuses equal the same for a player group defeating outsiders on there home plane, or defeating a great wyrm. Would the rewards for repeatedly foraging for supplies be able to keep up with a group that repeatedly destroys devils?

BTW, I also give xp for similar obstacles, although I tend to focus on those that provided a challenge (a ranger getting xp for rolling Survival?). Negotiations are especially fun, since those involved gain xp as if they defeated their opponent in combat.

My apologies if this looks like trolling. I realize that the amount of epic characters involved is up to the DM. My problem is, the more epic (or near so) NPC's there are, the less the exploits of the players seem to matter. It also tends to boost the overall power level of the campaign (the 22nd level leader had a 17th level general, who has a 15th level cohort and X 14th level officers, who have...).

It all seems very annoying.

 

[sword-dancer]

But in the end, would these bonuses equal the same for a player group defeating outsiders on there home plane, or defeating a great wyrm. Would the rewards for repeatedly foraging for supplies be able to keep up with a group that repeatedly destroys devils? :

No, but are the PCs are the only dragonslayers, the only specforces?

BTW, I also give xp for similar obstacles, although I tend to focus on those that provided a challenge

To be an obstacle, the task to get it done must be an challenge, I assume we both meant the same in this.

My problem is, the more epic (or near so) NPC's there are, the less the exploits of the players seem to matter.

Depends IMHO, on the scope and focus of the game.
If the focus is a small band in the slums or of young novices in the court vs the Masters of their trade, the champions of their gods, empires and so on.