An Essay to Wizards of the Coast

foolish_mortals

First Post
that's terrible that 4th editioners are going around calling you dumb. At least you know that there are only going to be a couple more years of that. Goodness, what's happened to this thing called dnd. Never heard of that happening before.

foolish_mortals
 

log in or register to remove this ad

pemerton

Legend
Skill challenges are a great way to throw dice at stuff which isn't hit points and monsters. It's great for a single diplomacy encounter in a game session. But when all your wizard abilities do damage and all virtually all rogue abilities do damage or move you around in combat? Not useful.
I don't agree with this. The wizard in my game has used Twist of Space on multiple occasions to rescue the victims of magically trapped. In the skill challenge actual play report to which I linked, the sorcerer used Bedevilling Burst to upset a tray of jello, thereby proving a point about the combat vulnerability of gelatinous cubes, and thereby defusing (to some extent) a tense conversation between the PCs and their nemesis about their looting of ancient cube-infested ruins.

you just simply cannot build a character in 4E who is GOOD at noncombat.
"Good" is a relative term, I guess, but the wizard PC in my game is good at non-combat - proficiency in every knowledge skill, a wide range of rituals, etc.

If you run a noncombat session, how much of your character are you using in 4E? Ten percent?
More than that, in my experience, but probably not all of it.

In my games, to play the game I want to run, means we are using 10% of the character sheet 60% of the time and the other 90% for the other 40% of the game. It CAN be done, sure. But why would I want to? Pathfinder suits my game better.
I didn't dispute that. I know next to nothing about your game. I was just picking up on your assertion that "If I wanted to run a non-combat session in 4E with a lot of stealth, diplomacy and court intrigue, I might as well tell my players to not bother bringing their character sheets, books or dice." I have run such sessions in 4E, and my players brought the character sheets, books and dice, and used them. It was not free roleplaying - it was HeroWars/Quest style conflict resolution using the guidelines for skill challenges set out in the 4e DMG and DMG2.

Would I run an all-skill-challenge game? No. I like combat in my game, which is why I GM 4e. If I wanted an all skill chalenge game, I'd run HeroWars/Quest or Maelstrom Storytelling. But I still think your comment understates the breadth of the situations the game can meaningfully handle.
 

Number48

First Post
What is it about what you saw on character sheets of previous editions that made your character feel like a noble diplomat?

More generally than just the noble diplomat, it comes down to skills, feats, spells, class features and abilities that can be used either specifically or with creativity outside of combat. In addition, if we are talking 3E, a multi-class and prestige system to combine classes into the features I envision in my character if I can't get there from just the base class.

You cannot honestly tell me you can do that in 4E. You can take the combat character 4E lets you play and put him in noncombat situations, but you cannot make a character that suits anything other than combat from a rules and mechanics standpoint.
 

Number48

First Post
I don't agree with this. The wizard in my game has used Twist of Space on multiple occasions to rescue the victims of magically trapped. In the skill challenge actual play report to which I linked, the sorcerer used Bedevilling Burst to upset a tray of jello, thereby proving a point about the combat vulnerability of gelatinous cubes, and thereby defusing (to some extent) a tense conversation between the PCs and their nemesis about their looting of ancient cube-infested ruins.

"Good" is a relative term, I guess, but the wizard PC in my game is good at non-combat - proficiency in every knowledge skill, a wide range of rituals, etc.

More than that, in my experience, but probably not all of it.

I didn't dispute that. I know next to nothing about your game. I was just picking up on your assertion that "If I wanted to run a non-combat session in 4E with a lot of stealth, diplomacy and court intrigue, I might as well tell my players to not bother bringing their character sheets, books or dice." I have run such sessions in 4E, and my players brought the character sheets, books and dice, and used them. It was not free roleplaying - it was HeroWars/Quest style conflict resolution using the guidelines for skill challenges set out in the 4e DMG and DMG2.

Would I run an all-skill-challenge game? No. I like combat in my game, which is why I GM 4e. If I wanted an all skill chalenge game, I'd run HeroWars/Quest or Maelstrom Storytelling. But I still think your comment understates the breadth of the situations the game can meaningfully handle.

I feel your argument is that with enough work you CAN pound a round peg in a square hole. That's true. It isn't the kind of game that is possible with 4E, but that it isn't the best choice for a large number of former D&D players. If 4E was awesome at running these types of games, Pathfinder wouldn't still exist. If so many people complain of it, mighn't there be a little truth behind it.

I'll say it for the 3rd time this thread. Give me the character and story feel of 3E, give me the dynamic combats of 4E. If we could only have one or the other, then there is no need for 5th edition.
 

pemerton

Legend
You can take the combat character 4E lets you play and put him in noncombat situations, but you cannot make a character that suits anything other than combat from a rules and mechanics standpoint.
This is a fairly strong claim. I'm thinking of things like the Bardic encounter power for +5 to Diplomacy, the low-level Warlock encounter utility for +5 to a range of social skills, the 2nd level Paladin utility Astral Voice which gives a 1x/day encounter-long buff (+4?) to Diplomacy, the range of Rogue utilities that buff hiding and movement and pilfering, the Ranger utilities that let you give advice to your allies and thereby buff their untrained skill checks, etc.

And then their are feats like Skill Training/Focus, Linguist, Deep/Wilderness Sage (the wizard PC in my game has Deep Sage), plus a range of other skill-enhancing feats. Plus a range of non-combat skill powers.

And then there is Ritual Casting.

If you mean that you can't make a PC who suits noncombat situations instead of combat situations, that is true. (Although arguably that is true also of Pathfinder, in which every class has BAB and hit points per level.) If you mean that the action resolution mechanics for combat are more complex and fine-grained than those for noncombat situations that's also true.
 

pemerton

Legend
I feel your argument is that with enough work you CAN pound a round peg in a square hole. That's true.
I think that's a little pejorative. My argument is that, if you know how to run skill challenges (by reading the rulebooks for the games that invented them - the 4e rulebooks on their own aren't enough) then you can run noncombat encounters in 4e that are compelling in both mechanical and narrative terms.

What you call "pounding a round peg in a square hole" I call "playing the game as it is designed - ie with full recognition and deployment of its metagame mechanics - rather than playing it as if it were AD&D or 3E".

It isn't the kind of game that is possible with 4E, but that it isn't the best choice for a large number of former D&D players. If 4E was awesome at running these types of games, Pathfinder wouldn't still exist. If so many people complain of it, mighn't there be a little truth behind it.
I think that most PF players don't want to run a game like 4e. That's pretty obvious. But as I posted upthread, I think that is because they object to metagame-heavy mechanics, of which skill challenges are one obvious example (the GM has to metagame the narration of successful and failed checks so as to drive the situation forward - the outcome of checks can't be treated in the same way that is it in 3E or PF as a simple matter of "meeting a DC correlates to a particular event occurring in the fiction").

But if you are asking, Do I think that 4e is an awesome system for running a situation-driven, thematically compelling (if rather gonzo) game of fantasy adventure?, then yes - for those who are happy to use metagame mechanics to produce that result.

Give me the character and story feel of 3E, give me the dynamic combats of 4E.
My own view is that it is hard to get dynamic combats out of a game that uses only simulationinst mechanics.

Ron Edwards comments on a similar issue here, under the heading "Ouija board roleplaying":

How do Ouija boards work? People sit around a board with letters and numbers on it, all touching a legged planchette that can slide around on the board. They pretend that spectral forces are moving the planchette around to spell messages. What's happening is that, at any given moment, someone is guiding the planchette, and the point is to make sure that the planchette always appears to everyone else to be moving under its own power.

Taking this idea to role-playing, the deluded notion is that Simulationist play will yield Story Now play without any specific attention on anyone's part to do so. The primary issue is to maintain the facade that "No one guides the planchette!" The participants must be devoted to the notion that stories don't need authors; they emerge from some ineffable confluence of Exploration per se. It's kind of a weird Illusionism perpetrated on one another, with everyone putting enormous value on maintaining the Black Curtain between them and everyone else. Typically, groups who play this way have been together for a very long time.

My call is, you get what you play for. Can you address Premise this way? Sure, on the monkeys-might-fly-out-my-butt principle. But the key to un-premeditated artistry of this sort (cutup fiction, splatter painting, cinema verite) is to know what to throw out, and role-playing does not include that option, at least not very easily.​

As is usual for Edwards, this is a little on the pessimistic side, and slightly dramatised for rhetorical effect. But I tend to think the basic point is right. 4e gets dynamic combats because it gives players the power to direct the combat by deploying mechanics that don't necessarily correlate to actions their PCs are taking in the fictional world. Take away those mechanics, and it becomes harder to get the dynamic combat.
 

Dannager

First Post
More generally than just the noble diplomat,

Right, but I was asking about the noble diplomat.

What parts of the character sheet made your character feel less like a noble diplomat, and why?

You cannot honestly tell me you can do that in 4E.
Yes, I can. You telling me that I can't tells me a lot about your experience with the system.

You can take the combat character 4E lets you play and put him in noncombat situations, but you cannot make a character that suits anything other than combat from a rules and mechanics standpoint.
Sure I can. 4e's non-combat rules and mechanics are contained within the skills and rituals systems. It is very easy to create a 4e character who excels at those things, in any number of ways. Heck, if I feel like it I can even excel in those things at the expense of some of my combat ability. Thankfully, 4e doesn't force you to make that choice, but you can certainly make it happen that way.

You're telling me that things cannot be done in 4e when they absolutely can.
 
Last edited:

Number48

First Post
What parts of the character sheet made your character feel less like a noble diplomat, and why?

You're being deliberately obtuse here. I just said what 3E/Pathfinder has that 4E doesn't and you ask it slightly differently?

Very well. The 4E character sheet has extremely limited options to anything outside of combat and when you get the options, it is either to take this specific non-combat usable ability or don't, not an option to take the ability usable outside of combat that you want and is perfectly reasonable in other game systems.

You guys keep arguing that, essentially, 4E can do it all and do it as well or better. That is patently false. Having a tiny portion of your rulebook contain a little bit about a way to use skills outside of combat does not a nuanced game make. You can have simulationism in your noncombat and gamism in your combats. The rules for these systems do not have to overlap. But skill challenges are a hasty tack-on when they realized they developed a fighting game. The basic argument is that skill challenges work well if the DM is awesome and the players all "get it." That is the system asking too much. The immersion available is 3E/Pathfinder is natural because all options flow in the direction of character concept. If your character concept is a combat monster, go there. If your character concept is noble diplomat, go there. The combats in 3E/Pathfinder are subpar compared to 4E and some tradeoffs that the system allows for your character concept are allowed, but too pricey to use. This is why I look forward to what is possible with 5E. If it is the quality jump of 3E over 2E, I think we can all be happy.
 

Dannager

First Post
You're being deliberately obtuse here. I just said what 3E/Pathfinder has that 4E doesn't and you ask it slightly differently?

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I'm asking you to explain in what ways, exactly, your character sheet makes you feel less like a noble diplomat. You haven't, so I'm asking you again.

Very well. The 4E character sheet has extremely limited options to anything outside of combat
Just to be clear, what are the differences on the character sheet between the options you have outside of combat in 4e, and the options you have outside of combat in previous editions? And how do these differences contribute to your character feeling less like a noble diplomat?

and when you get the options, it is either to take this specific non-combat usable ability or don't, not an option to take the ability usable outside of combat that you want and is perfectly reasonable in other game systems.
Do you have examples of this?

You guys keep arguing that, essentially, 4E can do it all and do it as well or better.
Basically, yeah.

That is patently false.
We don't think it is, but we're asking you to show us how we're wrong.

Having a tiny portion of your rulebook contain a little bit about a way to use skills outside of combat does not a nuanced game make.
To be clear, which editions of the game do you feel contained larger sections on portions of the game outside of combat? I'm happy to compare core rulebook page counts with you, but I don't think you're going to be pleased by what you find out.

You can have simulationism in your noncombat and gamism in your combats. The rules for these systems do not have to overlap. But skill challenges are a hasty tack-on when they realized they developed a fighting game.
Actually, I don't think skill challenges were tacked on at all. In fact, I think that skill challenges were a pretty core point of 4e design, and one of the real leaps in sophistication that the game made over previous versions.

The basic argument is that skill challenges work well if the DM is awesome and the players all "get it."
It's amazing how many different things you can replace "skill challenges" with in that sentence and still have it hold true.
 


Split the Hoard


Split the Hoard
Negotiate, demand, or steal the loot you desire!

A competitive card game for 2-5 players
Remove ads

Top