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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thunderfoot" data-source="post: 3396641" data-attributes="member: 34175">You raise an excellent point about the 'search' skill here Celebrim.  As a player of nearly 30 years and a DM of 20+, I too have noticed a shift, but I would also point out that the pendulum swing effect is also in play.In 1E (as has been pointed out in a most excellent way) the DM controlled all the information, to the exclusion of many parts in order to give the players a way to interact with the DM as an adjudicator and in a sense a coach.  In 3E.x the player could seemingly ignore anything new the DM drops in as 'against the rules' if you have a particullarly heavy rules lawyer in the group.  Both of these approachs are combat heavy for the most part.In 2E I think that the inclusion of skills through proficiencies actually handled things in a better manor by forcing the character to still 'plan the attack' of a trap or problem, so to speak, before picking up the dice.  Searches and checks are probably the most blanat example of this as pointed out in the previous post, but there were other things too.  Survival checks were still based on stating I am doing X and then rolling to determine success, that nice soft middle ground in between 1E I am doing X (DM checks to see if they even made notes on it.)) I'm doing X (rolls dice) I have a total o Y with my modifier and racial bonus of Z...Not the 2E was a bed of roses mind you, it started out as the strip it down version (four  classes, 3 sub classes) and no frills, the Complete books came out and things started to degrade rapidly from there, where nowadays we have feats and PrC out the butt, then it was 'kits'.  Pre-planned skill sets with a suggested path of progression.  With the exception of the Cleric, I felt that most of these were pretty wonky and as one that loves rogues, that says a lot.  Then the "Skills & Powers Options" came on-line and all Hades was unleashed.  I think this was perhaps the Pandora's Box moment when power was transfered to the player.  For the first time a DM had to ask a player what they were capable of, because the player had tweaked his character beyond recognition.It of course has manifested in the Feats and Skills of modern 3E.X, and I completely agree that players feel the need to be informed.  I remember a discussion many years ago when the 3E rules first came out about a player that complained that a DM took the Monster Manual away from him at the table.  There were quite a few people on the board that agreed that the DM was being too draconian and that the player bought the book, they should be able to use it.  As an 'old school' DM when I stated that only the PHB was allowed for player usage at my game (before the supps had come out) I was electronically lynched, carried off to be burned at the stake and was basically told that my birthday had been revoked and that Christmas was cancelled...  I still feel that players that don't allow themselves to be surprised by things are doing themselves a disservice; THAT is what attracted me to D&D all those years ago, the aspect of problem solving in an unkown environment that could be altered still further at any time.  Many players just don't have that same experience anymore.  I have very loudly argued that PrC have ruined the game for me only to be shouted down as somewhat of an ogre, my point however fits in more here than in those discussions, I think.  The original PrCs were in the DMG, so how did players know about them in the first place?  If the DMG was verbotten (forbidden) and you had DMG knowledge, you were cheating.  I think this is one way that the 'attitude' of the game has changed.  The DM is less of a 'needed' equation at the table, except to have someone role for NPCs and against the players.  Of course this is an over generealization, but then all such conversations are; I'm sure there are exceptions, I know of several, but the majority of what I see in 3E.X that differs from the previous is the DM/player confrontation level has increased dramatically when newer players are involved.  This style has led to the willing acceptance of rules lawyers and powergamers to tables where before their exclusion was a must (for the most part) in order for a DM to maintain control and order.  I would hope that there would be a happy medium somehwere and that if indeed a 4th edition is to be created, that it would be recified there.  Not neccessarily rules light, but not so player knowledge dependant.  I still can and will play any version available, because frankly, I still like D&D.  I've tried other systems, even the clones of the original, and they just aren't the same (Sorry C&C and HM folks).  The differences between each edition were put in place for a reason; I firmly believe the intention was to increase enjoyablility all around, and to that fact I will say that for the most part, the designers have succeeded, but in a few 'key' areas I feel that the baby was tossed out with the bathwater along with the rag, the tub and possibly the person doing the scrubbing.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /></blockquote>

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