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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3440878" data-attributes="member: 18280">Of course they did.  But, I would argue, it is easier to point to the book in 1e or 2e as supporting the DM in his right to say No than it is in 3e.  I imagine that, if the Internet existed back then, there would be message boards with "The DM can say No when the players tell him he can say No" threads then, too.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> My general rule is that, if you're not there to have fun and cooperate with the DM and other players, don't expect to be there for long.  I have no time for people who want to ruin the game.  OTOH, I gather that not everyone has the kind of extensive potential player pool available that I do, so this solution isn't going to be universal.My only objection was to the claim that there had been no change to the presentation, and therefore no reasonable complaint could be made about that change.  Perhaps I misread what was intended.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> The bit about reading the DMG was in addition to Rule 0 in 1e, and as an admonition to help make the game more fun for you when you're starting, it makes sense.  Fighting a single 1e skeleton and triumphing (while envisioning the Jason and the Argonauts skeletons that were 10 times as tough), then finding something magical and unknown, constitutes a lot of the thrill for first-time players.  Later on, not so much.   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> (But, you have to admit, it is interesting that in the 1e days TSR made a decision to tell players not to buy books -- effectively limiting their customer base to 1/4 or 1/10th of what it otherwise would have been -- simply because they thought it would make a better game.  Whether they were right or wrong, it is a very different "business model" than we saw in 2e, or later 1e, or than we see today.)I would agree with you for the most part.  I mean, there are lots of threads where people post that 1e didn't have tactical combat, and that is probably due (in part, at least) to the tactical stuff all being in the DMG.Of course, as older RPers, we now enter into the era where the question becomes, even if all of that stuff is transparent to the players, should all of that stuff be transparent to the PCs?  I decided No, and came up with a system whereby I could keep the Item Creation feats without letting them apply to everything in a given magic item class.  So far, it seems to be working well enough!   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh    :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /> Where I disagree with you is in aspects of the game that relate to "world building".  Using 3e, I would say that an interesting world can (and perhaps should) contain monsters, magic items, spells, prestige classes, and so on that are found in limited areas and that are wholly unknown to the players until they encounter them.  Remove the words "prestige classes" and I would hazard to say that this applies to any edition.  IMHO, players can and should expect the unknown.(Of course, I fully endorse the idea that DMs should play to their strengths, and recognize that what makes a game run well for me may not make a game that runs well for someone else.)RC</blockquote>

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