An interesting thought...

[KDLadage]

NOTE: Please move all comments to this thread: HERE

I have been thinking about something lately... just an idea, really. Nothing more. And before you read this, please understand that I am not claiming that anything is broken, shafted or needs to be changed...



All animals use d8s for hit points. All beasts use d10s. Constructs: 10; Dragons 12 and so on...

Yet Humans, Elves and so on have hit points based entirely upon the class they enter -- as if the class is somehow a sub-species classificiation. I know why this is like this: it was a hold-over from earlier editions of the game. Still, I have to wonder...

What if humans were defined as having a hit die type of d10; elves use a d8; Half-Orcs use a d12; Gnomes and Halflings use a d6 and so on...

What then, if each character/creature here were given 1 hit die as a baseline for thier hit points, before any classes were chosen. For purposes of this hit-die, all PCs are considered as having the full 100% of the maximum (a human PC starts, thus, with a 10 hit points, modified for Con).

Finally, what then would happen if classes, instead of having a hit-die associated with them, had a hit-die progression instead? By this I mean something like this:

Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger: +1 HD per level
Cleric, Druid: +1 HD per 2 levels
Bard, Rogue, Monk: +1 HD per 3 levels
Sorcerer, Wizard: +1 HD per 4 levels

This way, a human Sorcerer at 20th level would have a total of 6d10 hit points (1HD to start, + 5HD for 20 leevls of Sorcerer), while a Halfling Sorcerer at 20th level would ahve a total of 6d6 hit points (1 HD to start, +5HD for 20 levels of Sorcerer).... and so on...

Thoughts?

 

[Crothian]

Well, a Dragon that takes Sorcerer levels only gets 1d4 hp for that level. THey just get a really nice base to add that to.

It is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it. It really weakens the smaller races.

 

[Warchild]

Well for the fighter classes, they wouldn't lose anything they would have had before, as long as they were human.

But the other classes would suffer badly in comparison.
In core rules a 20th level human sorcerer would have 20D4. In your set up, they would have the 6D10. 80 vs 60. Halfling/gnomes 36 vs 80. ouch.

Human fighters would not be affected, Half Orc fighter types would do better, everyone other race and non-fighter class would suffer very badly, much worse than they normally do vs Fighter types.

Thats not necessarily a bad thing, if thats what you are looking for. It would make them a lot more susceptible to the creatures of the MM, though, because they wouldn't be as tougher as they normally might be. You'd either have to adjust the CR's to represent the player's loss in toughness.

This tactic would blance out the races a little bit. The humans could use a little, the Half-orcs a lot, and the elves, gnomes, dwarves, and halfling's could use a slap down, if you ask me.

Basically i think this change would end being one of those things that ends up effecting a ton of things by the time you are done.
Races, Classes, and monsters may all end needing adjustments.
What was the reason for this idea? Where you thinking to weakening the non-human races, or was it just an idle thought?

 

[nopantsyet]

But the other classes would suffer badly in comparison.
In core rules a 20th level human sorcerer would have 20D4. In your set up, they would have the 6D10. 80 vs 60. Halfling/gnomes 36 vs 80. ouch.

that's at max rolls...if you take average (isn't that d/2+1?) you get:

d4/2=2...2+1=3...3*20=60
d10/2=5...5+1=6...6*10=60

granted, that's just one example...of course to really determine if it screws things up, you'd have to run more sets of numbers and see how they balance.

i think it's an interesting idea. definitely a logical approach. me, i'm okay with the current mechanics as long as it all works out so that i can kill PCs without it looking intentional, i'm happy.

(how do i tell them that as a result of the unfreezing process i have no internal monologue?)

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm doin' this!

I could always use a more "universal" system, and it's always kinda bothered me how "monster race" and classes are so intertwined.....I mean come on. Choose!

I wonder how this would affect my size scheme? IMC, I use a "balancing" size scheme. As creatures increase in size, in addition to getting to-hit and AC penalties, they get equal HP and Damage bonuses. Ditto for the smalling.

It also always struck me as strange that a giant wouldn't kill a farie if they punched it. It's swatting a fly, or petting a delicate bird too harshly. Smaller creatures are hurt more by big things.

So this may also be interesting...I like the idea, certainly. Now if only I could divorce HD (and all the adjoining benefit) from monster stats and give them levels instead...

 

[der_kluge]

I like it, although I suspect if I were to spring this on some players if I were DM'ing, they'd hate it, unless they all played Half-Orcs.

But, I'd say not to overcomplicate it. If you're halfling, just stick with d6 HD; 1 for each level, up to 20.

So, a 20th level Halfling fighter is 20D6 HD, and a 20th level Halfling Wizard is 20D6.

I'd have to think about this some more. I agree with Warchild, changing this would have massive amounts of implications throughout the game. I think it's doable, though.

 

[EOL]

First may I respectfully submit that this thread might belong in the house rules forum or at a minumum the rules forum.

That being said I think that it could work. It would take some fiddling, but with the exception of a certain degree of elegence (which is nice, I admit) what does this add to the game. You said yourself there is no wrong to be righted no shafting to be....un-shafted. And as a downside I think it becomes more difficult to remember if for no other reason than everybody is so used to doing it the other way.

 

[UofMDude]

What everyone seems to be overlooking here is the impact this will have on the Con bonus

Witness:

current Wizard with 18 Con at 20th level: +80 hitpoints from Con bonus

new system Wizard with 18 Con at 20th level (and therefore 5HD): +20 hitpoints from Con bonus

If there is ever a case of "got the shaft" this is one. I like the fact that Con bonus now equally affects all classes. This proposed system would be a total reversal of that.

It also has a problem of creating new "sweet spots" in classes which might require some rebalancing or adjustment.

UofMDude

*cough* house rules *cough*

 

[KDLadage]

First: House Rules -- true, it probably belongs there, and I am sorry. I didn;t think of it as a house rule when I was posting, it was just an idle thought as I was contemplating some stuff and it occured to me that Classes act more like races than professions in D&D. So, if the Powers That Be would like to move this, I am all for it.

Second: What was this? It was an idle thought. Not much more. I am not sure how easy it would be to impliment -- like it has been pointed out, it would have long reaching effects in the system -- some of which I am sure are not immediately obvious and might cause some trouble without you realizing it...

Third: Got the shaft due to CON bonuses... I disagree. I alerady believe that HP are inflated in D&D (I am seriously considering the Grim and Gritty rules variant in my next game) so I do not see this being too muhc of a problem. But I do think that a Halfling Fighter should have less Hit Points -- given equal CON scores -- thanks to the reduction in mass. This was just one way of approaching it. I am sure it needs a lot of thought before being implimented in a game.

Last: I would again like to appologise and request that, if you have further comments you want to add -- I am starting a thread over in House Rules to hold it...

 

[Henry]

A fascinating idea, and one that in another time and place would have been perfect for OD&D. In fact, OD&D was something like this, with respect to the demi-human races, which were their own class.

However, the only downfall I can see is that players in 3E would likely scream their bloody heads off.

You would likely also need to re-think armor class, because it really does nothing for the tiny, wiry guys who NEVER get hit. Perhaps at the same time add some sort of Defense bonus, small like the one in Call of Cthulhu, to offset the lack of hit points gained by Halfling fighter-types. It would tend to reinforce stereotypes, though not the ones that exist currently. Halflings would likely stick to classes that aren't front-liners, such as mages. Half-orcs would dominate as fighters,followed a close second of humans.