An interesting update

[Sunseeker]

So some time ago I queried you all on how allowing people to reuse encounters and dailies in place of another would turn out, so I thought I'd come back with an update on how this has worked out in my game so far. We've gone from level 5 to level 8, and so far, things have been pretty smooth, I've decided to go the route of making dailies and encounters similar to spells and spell slots, and while this treads on the turf of the vancian, noone has really minded.

I couldn't seem to rationalize why if a character was trained in an ability, they could only perform it once in a given timeframe. Claiming that it was "very hard" wasn't sufficient because clearly they have other "very hard" abilities they can use afterward.

Most classes haven't changed in power level at all. Variety hasn't gone down as my players apparently enjoy the versatility of a diverse power list.

The problem however, is healers. Powerful damage spells and attacks still have their range, but with the average healing surge being around 15, healers absolutely rock the battlefield. I've tried amping up the power of my enemies, but I'm pushing dangerously close to foes who are capable of one-shotting my party members.

I'm curious on trying out more tactical AI. I realize that this can come off as being a "mean DM", but really I have healers who can repeatedly heal the entire party from near-death to full every turn.

So I'm curious for you all 4e DMers, how have your attempts at tactical AI been? Suggestions for styles or approaches? I don't want to punish my party for what I've allowed them to do, but I do want to find some way to keep the apparent over-powered-ness of the healing I've allowed from simply making every fight "tank and spank"?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't understand how your system is making healing more powerful. Is Cure X Wounds being spammed?

Ah, I think I get it. Healing Word is getting spammed instead. I'd recommend hard-capping that at 2 or 3 times per encounter, even with the new rules.

 

[MoonSong]

Even a Healing strike being spammed could acomplish a similar effect. The easiest way to limit healing is to limit the number of surges. Maybe limiting your players to expend healing surges up to their constitution modiffier between short rests ?.

Or short of that bring, lots of monsters that eat up surges on a hit.

Perhaps also lots of monsters that daze and petrify?

 

[Ferghis]

I couldn't seem to rationalize why if a character was trained in an ability, they could only perform it once in a given timeframe. Claiming that it was "very hard" wasn't sufficient because clearly they have other "very hard" abilities they can use afterward.
...
The problem however, is healers. Powerful damage spells and attacks still have their range, but with the average healing surge being around 15, healers absolutely rock the battlefield. I've tried amping up the power of my enemies, but I'm pushing dangerously close to foes who are capable of one-shotting my party members.

I suggest a different houserule, one that I have read on these boards (but not tried myself). I would leave dailies as such: a lot of them are too potent to allow spamming. But allow characters to recover an encounter power by spending a standard action to recover it, with the exception of "power recovery or power use adding" powers. That fully complies with the problem you describe: if you know how to do something, you can do it plenty of times. You just need to catch your breath. And even your solution doesn't allow characters to use infinite dailies.

This should make healers less able to spam heals, since they need to take a standard to recover them. Also, remember that healers can only make use of their class healing power once per round, even if they have several uses of it, so they shouldn't be able to heal the whole party up in one round that easily.

If this doesn't resolve the issue, can you describe in greater detail how the healer is doing what you say they are doing?

 

[Dragonblade]

Perhaps, you are thinking of my rule?

I use the house rule that you can recover any expended encounter power (whether combat or utility) by spending a standard action.

There are two exceptions, however:

You cannot use this to recover an encounter power that grants additional actions (to avoid infinite action chaining combos)

And you cannot use this to recover an encounter power that already specifies a different recovery method or has a hard limit on uses per encounter.

Healing Word could not be recovered by this rule, because it is specifically limited to being usable twice per encounter. Likewise, the Avenger's core class power could not be used with this rule because it already has a special recovery method described in the power itself.

I haven't had any issues like the OP describes, because most clerical healing falls under Healing Word, or Dailies, and my rule doesn't apply to either.

Also, if you are allowing your players to effectively have "flex" power slots that they can fill with any appropriate power on the fly in the middle of battle, then I can see why you have issues. That kind of versatility is extremely powerful in 4e. I'm pretty flexible on letting my players swap out powers for others, but only during an extended rest. Never in battle.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I couldn't seem to rationalize why if a character was trained in an ability, they could only perform it once in a given timeframe. Claiming that it was "very hard" wasn't sufficient because clearly they have other "very hard" abilities they can use afterward.

My go-to explanation is "It's magic, so it just works that way." Yes, even martial exploits are magical. In any case, I'm glad your house rule is working out.

As for your healing issue, I second what Psi and Dragonblade said.

 

[Riastlin]

My go-to explanation is "It's magic, so it just works that way." Yes, even martial exploits are magical. In any case, I'm glad your house rule is working out.

As for your healing issue, I second what Psi and Dragonblade said.

My go to explanation (though I've rarely needed it) has been that encounter and daily powers are predicated on certain "openings" that allow for said attack to work, and that these types of opening just don't come along all that after. Note this is different than "Well, mechanically, it would be a good time for me to use Blunder, but alas I already used it." Rather its "Blunder requires that the target be distracted in just the right way, and turned just so, in order for it to work. Once it happens, and the enemies see the result, they are much more wary of the bard."

/shrug

As for the OP, it does sound as though you may be having an issue with healing word and such being recovered. The suggestions above are good and I think particularly good in the case of healing word. The thing to keep in mind is that the math was set up on the assumption that healers would only get X number of healing word uses per fight.

That being said, some other options might include not letting the party take a lot of extended rests. If the cleric is spamming healing word, then the party is going to start burning through surges pretty quickly. Keep the fights coming and eventually even an "easy" fight is going to be a challenge since the cleric's healing word won't help. Also, if you are not already doing so, start focusing fire. This is particularly appropriate when dealing with "intelligent" monsters. I know that my players always struggle more when they spread out their attacks, or focus on the wrong target first. By the same token, most of my character deaths have come as a result of focused fire. Healing word doesn't work if the PC is already dead.

 

[Zero Cochrane]

prevent power chaining

In addition to the house rules suggested above, I would recommend that the same Encounter or Daily power cannot be used in consecutive rounds. This prevents certain powers from being used continuously (such as those that grant flying for 1 round lasting for 2 or more rounds). It also decreases the monotony of using the same power repeatedly.

 

[Sunseeker]

Even a Healing strike being spammed could acomplish a similar effect. The easiest way to limit healing is to limit the number of surges. Maybe limiting your players to expend healing surges up to their constitution modiffier between short rests ?.

Or short of that bring, lots of monsters that eat up surges on a hit.

Perhaps also lots of monsters that daze and petrify?

I hadn't thought of that, but that's not a bad idea. It wouldn't be punishing the healer, and it would make healing at the right time a lot more important than just healing everyone every round. I've got a pretty diverse party and I love to go after NADs instead of AC, so I think even something as simple as a zombie bite or the touch of a wright could result in loss of healing surges(similar to how oldschool versions stole levels). It's literally taking your essence away. mmmm, me likey!

I have a fairly intense battle planned for next session, and I think I'll incorporate this into it.

Perhaps, you are thinking of my rule?

I use the house rule that you can recover any expended encounter power (whether combat or utility) by spending a standard action.

There are two exceptions, however:

You cannot use this to recover an encounter power that grants additional actions (to avoid infinite action chaining combos)

And you cannot use this to recover an encounter power that already specifies a different recovery method or has a hard limit on uses per encounter.

Healing Word could not be recovered by this rule, because it is specifically limited to being usable twice per encounter. Likewise, the Avenger's core class power could not be used with this rule because it already has a special recovery method described in the power itself.

I haven't had any issues like the OP describes, because most clerical healing falls under Healing Word, or Dailies, and my rule doesn't apply to either.

Also, if you are allowing your players to effectively have "flex" power slots that they can fill with any appropriate power on the fly in the middle of battle, then I can see why you have issues. That kind of versatility is extremely powerful in 4e. I'm pretty flexible on letting my players swap out powers for others, but only during an extended rest. Never in battle.

I don't think your rule will quite work for me because I feel that even I'll have difficulty remembering it. Even though my rule is abusable, I like it's simplicity.


As for people using the same power repetitively, that to me is a player discretion issue. I once had a paladin whose thing was charging, it was basically the Slayer with some powers I never used. If other people are bored that Jimmy uses the same power over and over, well that's their problem, as long as Jimmy is having fun, I'm not going to get in his way.

Anyway, I'll try some surge eating, and maybe some healing debuffing(ie: player under X effect only gets 50% of all healing).