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Angel Finale

DanMcS

Explorer
Cthulhudrew said:
You know what, I'm not convinced anymore. :p

Just watched the rest of the episode, and the subtext where Lorne tells Lindsey "This was Angel's plan" and "One last job" seem pretty clearly to indicate that it was instigated by Angel...

Grr. Anyway, It's still ambiguous enough that I can enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, Lorne did it on his own. :)

And, to mess with your head further, Lorne has read lindsey a couple of times, so he knew Lindsey expected to die by Angel's hand, and could have just been telling him what he wanted to hear.

I don't really buy that though. When there were secrets and tricks in the past, they were layed out with the explanation that they would be explained someday. There are no more somedays; everything got laid out in this episode. Lorne whacked him at the behest of Angel.
 

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Vocenoctum

First Post
Cthulhudrew said:
You know what, I'm not convinced anymore. :p

Just watched the rest of the episode, and the subtext where Lorne tells Lindsey "This was Angel's plan" and "One last job" seem pretty clearly to indicate that it was instigated by Angel...

Grr. Anyway, It's still ambiguous enough that I can enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, Lorne did it on his own. :)

I don't really think it's ambigious.
Lorne was assigned to go with Lindsey, the camera leaves.
when we return to Angel & Co, they're leaving, that's when Lorne says he will fade away. IMO, it was simply a stunt to preserve the surprise of Lindsey's death. During the "offcamera" stuff is when Angel details Lindsey's death.
What he says to Lindsey, and the way the whole scene goes down leaves little doubt in my mind that Lorne didn't do it of his own free will.
 
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Cthulhudrew

First Post
Vocenoctum said:
What he says to Lindsey, and the way the whole scene goes down leaves little doubt in my mind that Lorne didn't do it of his own free will.

Well, he does of course do it of his free will- no one is forcing him to shoot Lindsey- but I understand your meaning. And you're probably right, as I said, having rewatched it, it's pretty clear Angel told him to do it, but I still like to think there is enough vagary that he could have chosen to do it on his own.

And nothing anyone says will make me think otherwise. ;)
 

Merlion

First Post
It wasn't a cliffhanger. They all die

I dont really think so. I really doubt Ilyria dies. I kind of doubt she really and truly can die. And Angel and Spike have both proven themselves quite resilient.

I think the show got cancelled and Joss didnt have time to completely wrap everything up in a way that would have allowed for an unambigious ending. Its definitly a cliffhanger, because we dont know what happens after the last seen. Buffy and a bunch of Slayers, and/or Willow could appear. The Powers That Be (despite the fact that they seemingly ceased to exist after like the 3rd season) could intervene. Theres just no telling.


Of course, I really would have liked to have seen Ilyria regain her full power and whup the lot of em.
 

NeoSamurai

First Post
On Lorne and Lindsay...

It is actually possible that Angel didn't give Lorne orders. Think about it, Lorne is very empathic (even if he doesn't have powers) he can still read people and he's already grown disgusted with himself prior to shooting Lindsay. Additionally, Angel is very astute and has displayed some very fine manipulative abilities to get people to do things without actually telling them to do so because he forced them into those situations.

I think its entirely possible (just not AS probable as other theories) that Angel expected Lorne to do something to Lindsay and that is why he put the two together. It would also explain why Lorne did not want to hang with Angel anymore specifically because he was tired of being manipulated and knew Angel expected him to take Lindsay down.

Essentially, Angel put Lorne and Lindsay together as a team because he knew Lorne. Lorne resented Angel for doing that because he knew Angel. Lorne did what he did because it was the thing that needed to be done, but resented it because he was being manipulated (hence his behavior).

Just food for thought.
 

takyris

First Post
Hi, just chiming in late, having finally gotten through all my Tivo clutter (pregnant wife -- we're going through some fairly crazy times...), and I have to say...

Wow.

Liked just about everything. I will chime in and say that I didn't like Lorne killing Lindsey, because I didn't see a purpose in it. I didn't see Lindsey as the evil one -- or at least, i wasn't convinced. In my own pocket dimension, Lindsey had spent the years of his exile learning new tricks pretty much in order to do what Angel did... build up enough street cred to draw attention to himself, and then get into the circle of thorns -- and then destroy it. That could be Tacky-fantasy-land, though... I just saw Lindsey as being a bit of a dark hero himself now. But if Team Angel knew different, Team Angel knew different.

Loved all the lines people have mentioned. Loved bringing in so many of the early people. While I wasn't jazzed about the Circle of Thorns being revealed right at the end as the bad guys -- I'd have preferred some big lead-in with the big people we've had around all series as the final foes -- I can understand doing it the way that they did, with the time and resources that they had. And, when I think about it, they did tie it in with Wolfram and Hart and Lindsey.

On a personal note, while I loved this series and thought the ending was a great "go out fighting the good fight" line, one thing that it really clued me in on is the ultimate pessimism in Whedon's shows. I love that his hero is named "Angel", but that's the only hint of heaven we've ever seen. Cordy's higher plane was a setup to get her killed, as was Skip. The Powers that Be from Season One got minced. Even Cordy's visions ended up going away, with one little blurb in the second-to-last episode. This was about people fighting demons, and that's always an unfair fight if you don't let angels into the picture.

And I understand why that wouldn't be as interesting -- why angels are too bold and perfect to make interesting heroes, and why having God show up to kick demon booty would reduce Wes and Gunn's own heroism. I totally understand that, and I do like the fundamental message of "fight the good fight, not because you think you'll win, but because you want to"... but it's also a very sad and lonely message.

I dunno. Maybe it's just that I'm a different person from who I was 5 (or 8) years ago.

Still, that's just my own personal stuff cluttering up the airwaves. Fundamentally, it was a rockin' finale, and I'm glad that it ended the way that it did. It's the closest Angel could ever come to riding off into the sunset. And I'm glad it's over -- although I'm bummed that it had to be the WB's decision, I'm glad that Whedon has 5 good years to look back on. I like the B5 model of television -- make a good show, make it until the story you want to tell is done, and then end it. I personally liked the last two seasons of Buffy just fine, but I'm also glad it's over. It was a great story. I'll want to go back and rewatch it someday, just like I want to reread some of my favorite books. But I'm glad that they ended when they did, too. One of the most important parts of writing is knowing when to end it.
 

RangerWickett said:
It wasn't a cliffhanger. They all die. That's a great ending, considering their demeanor as they face that last fight. There's no way they could win, but they're still all smiles, because they've found the right path, and they'll follow it to its end.

No doubt there are a few deaths, and several people have mentioned Illyria being strong enough to survive, but don't forget that Angel still had the power of the Senior Partners coursing through his veins. It gave him the strength to take Hamilton apart, and we already saw how powerful he was. What's the timestamp on that? Who knows. It could even be permanent. If it wasn't, though, the alley still wasn't far enough into the future for the blood's effect to have worn off. Angel was about to hand out a ridiculous amount of asswhooping, courtesy of the Senior Partners, and he definitely got him a dragon.
 

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