Angels/Demons in a World Without Alignment?

[Odhanan]

Just because one removes alingments from the game doesn't mean the concepts they represent and the belifs of certain creatures have to change. So other then a few small mechanic changes I keep them the same.

I agree. Other that mechanic changes for abilities based on Alignment, there doesn't have to be any significant change.

You can see all fantasy settings for other games which use Angels and Demons, for instance, or all RPGs using them without a notion of "alignment" in RAW, for that matter: In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas (In Nomine in the U.S.) and Demon: The Fallen come to mind.

 

[Kwitchit]

In fact, there's an exemplar (outsider type) for every alignment:
CG: Eladrin e.g. bralani
NG: Guardinal e.g. Leonal
LG: Archon
CN: Slaad
TN: Rilmani
LN: Modron (possibly now Formian)
CE: Demon (esp. Tanar'ri)
NE: Yugoloth
LE: Devil (Esp. Baatezu)

 

[Dog Moon]

In fact, there's an exemplar (outsider type) for every alignment:
CG: Eladrin e.g. bralani
NG: Guardinal e.g. Leonal
LG: Archon
CN: Slaad
TN: Rilmani
LN: Modron (possibly now Formian)
CE: Demon (esp. Tanar'ri)
NE: Yugoloth
LE: Devil (Esp. Baatezu)

Well, that's information I didn't feel like taking the time to look at, so sorry if I was incorrect about the specific alignments. I hope my point was made nonetheless.

The main thing I was having trouble with was whether or not they should be changed. If not, then everything is easy. If so, then I have to think about what to do with them.

Personally, I've never played in any games which had Angels/Demons without alignments. I've played in WoD and SR, but if there are Angels and Demons in those games, then I've at least never seen them. That may be why I had problems trying to view Angels/Demons without the solid alignments that Dnd has given them.

Ny, I would love to see that write-up, if yer willing. I'm thinking atm that without the alignments in place, and since I don't use like 6 of the above aligned creatures with any sort of frequency, I may mess around with their places in the world. Any sort of suggestions would be appreciated.

And for the LG/CG for Demons/Devils...whoops!

 

[Nyaricus]

Ny, I would love to see that write-up, if yer willing. I'm thinking atm that without the alignments in place, and since I don't use like 6 of the above aligned creatures with any sort of frequency, I may mess around with their places in the world. Any sort of suggestions would be appreciated.

Okay, but it's really more of an essay than a post No, really

I'll get to work on that in a word processor, and hopefully have it up later tonight. Wednesday if not tonight, in any case.

Also, I'll note it now, and I'll note it later: it blatantly rips off RL religion, and also uses the terms "angels", "demons" and "devils" in a different context than D&D (and than in RL religion). Also note that most of these creatures haven't been statted up and are merely textual references to the actual creatures; in game all of the aformentioned "monsters" would be CR 20 and higher - at least

Oh, and how in the nine hells did you get so many posts?

cheers,
--N

 

[Dog Moon]

Oh, and how in the nine hells did you get so many posts?

cheers,
--N

Same way as you: posting.

 

[jollyninja]

In the allignmentless games i have run, i made them the exception to the no alignment rule. I made them avatars of a concept, be it deception, betrayal, or compassion as the case may be and thus radiate a palpable aura of either positive energy or negative energy which detects through spells such as detect good/evil ect. they were also the only creatures that had allignments for the purposes of spells that had allignment based effects, everyone else got the "neutral" effect. It worked out well for me and made it so that they were plot points as opposed to random monsters like all others.

 

[Psion]

Late to the party but to reiterate:

For the purposes of the alignment system, you can make subtype the sole determiner of alignment. So protection from evil works against demons, but not brutal killers (etc.)

You might want to go further than that and/or add evil descriptors to other intensely evil supernatural creatures like undead or (probably a simpler thumbrule) any creature with an "always" alignment descriptor.

 

[Nightfall]

I go with Psion on this. Mortals might be evil but no way they are "EVIL" evil.

 

[Solarious]

Psion's ideas are good, for what you suggest. Depending on the individuals (and the campaign setting), most mortals may or may not be capable of the utter depvaities that fiends are capable of. There might be a few who are a cut under the rest, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Also, you can instead make the outsiders exemplars of universal aspects. Angels, for example, might be incarnations of light, and meditate eternally on it's nature in a plane where it is always day. Balors may represent the terrible hunger and devouring nature of a fire raging out of control, all consuming. [/Eberron backdoor evangilizing]

 

[Andor]

There is a video game called Disgaea that sort of explored that issue. In it you had three seperate but connected planes of existence, Celestia, Earth, and the Netherworld. Commonly held belief (on all three planes) holds that the Angels are good and the Demons are evil. Of course the storyline of the game centers on the fact that just because everyone believes something doesn't mean it's true.

On a side note the game is funny as hell. And what happens to the souls of the dead is.. uh.. unconventional.. but interesting, as well as being funny.